Veset: Difference between revisions
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#A woman who doesn't have a fixed veset (established with 3 times), which is very common, has to observe a veset on the 30th day from her last period and that is called an Onah Beynonit.<ref>*Rashi Niddah 15a s.v. Bitoch explains that a woman is concerned about a 30 day veset since by default that's when a woman sees her period. The Ramban (Chiddushim 15a s.v. vehu) supports this opinion from the Yerushalmi Niddah 2:4. The Rashba ([http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=8922&st=&pgnum=367 Torat Habayit 15a]) based on Rashi writes that any woman who doesn't have a fixed veset needs to be concerned about the Onah Beynonit. The Ran Shevuot 4b-5a s.v. garsinan understood Rashi that there's an Onah Beynonit even if a woman has a fixed veset but argues that the concern of Onah Beynonit should only exist if she doesn't have a fixed veset. The idea of an Onah Beynonit is codified by the Tur and Shulchan Aruch 189:1. | #A woman who doesn't have a fixed veset (established with 3 times), which is very common, has to observe a veset on the 30th day from her last period and that is called an Onah Beynonit.<ref>*Rashi Niddah 15a s.v. Bitoch explains that a woman is concerned about a 30 day veset since by default that's when a woman sees her period. The Ramban (Chiddushim 15a s.v. vehu) supports this opinion from the Yerushalmi Niddah 2:4. The Rashba ([http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=8922&st=&pgnum=367 Torat Habayit 15a]) based on Rashi writes that any woman who doesn't have a fixed veset needs to be concerned about the Onah Beynonit. The Ran Shevuot 4b-5a s.v. garsinan understood Rashi that there's an Onah Beynonit even if a woman has a fixed veset but argues that the concern of Onah Beynonit should only exist if she doesn't have a fixed veset. The idea of an Onah Beynonit is codified by the Tur and Shulchan Aruch 189:1. | ||
*The Shach 189:30 quotes many rishonim who don't quote the concept of Onah Beynonit. Furthermore, he concludes the Onah Beynonit will almost always fall out at the same time as the veset hachodesh. Sidrei Tahara 189:12 offers a few cases where they don't align. The Chacham Tzvi 114 argues with the Shach and defends Shulchan Aruch. Pri Deah (Siftei Levi 189:30) writes that the majority of poskim do not hold like the Shach. Chochmat Adam 112:5 is strict for the Shach and Shulchan Aruch.</ref> | *The Shach 189:30 quotes many rishonim who don't quote the concept of Onah Beynonit. Furthermore, he concludes the Onah Beynonit will almost always fall out at the same time as the veset hachodesh. Sidrei Tahara 189:12 offers a few cases where they don't align. The Chacham Tzvi 114 argues with the Shach and defends Shulchan Aruch. Pri Deah (Siftei Levi 189:30) writes that the majority of poskim do not hold like the Shach. Chochmat Adam 112:5 is strict for the Shach and Shulchan Aruch.</ref> | ||
#Some poskim also count the 31st day as the Onah Beynonit.<ref>The Chavot Daat 189:12 doesn't accept the Shach's major premise but accepts another aspect of his approach which is that the Oneh Beynonit isn't on the 30th day as is the opinion of Shulchan Aruch but that it is the 31st day. Kitzur Shulchan Aruch 155:3 adopts the opinion of the Chavot Daat to calculate the Onah Beynonit as the 31st day exclusively. Rav Hershel Schachter (notes to Laws and Concepts of Niddah by Rabbi Zvi Sobolofsky page 308) says to be machmir to separate on both days 30 and 31. Badei Hashulchan 189:8 writes that one should be strict to separate on day 30 and day 31, except in an extenuating circumstances in which case one should be strict only for day 30.</ref> Sephardim aren't concerned for this opinion.<ref>Rav Ovadia Yosef in Taharat Habayit v. 1 p. 77 accepts Shulchan Aruch that the Onah Beynonit is the 30th day.</ref> | #Some poskim also count the 31st day as the Onah Beynonit.<ref>The Chavot Daat 189:12 doesn't accept the Shach's major premise but accepts another aspect of his approach which is that the Oneh Beynonit isn't on the 30th day as is the opinion of Shulchan Aruch but that it is the 31st day. Kitzur Shulchan Aruch 155:3 adopts the opinion of the Chavot Daat to calculate the Onah Beynonit as the 31st day exclusively. Rav Hershel Schachter (notes to Laws and Concepts of Niddah by Rabbi Zvi Sobolofsky page 308) says to be machmir to separate on both days 30 and 31. Badei Hashulchan 189:8 writes that one should be strict to separate on day 30 and day 31, except in an extenuating circumstances in which case one should be strict only for day 30.</ref> Sephardim aren't concerned for this opinion.<ref>Rav Ovadia Yosef in Taharat Habayit v. 1 p. 77 accepts Shulchan Aruch that the Onah Beynonit is the 30th day. Rabbi Lehbar (Magen Avot YD p. 130) writes that Moroccans also keep the 30th day.</ref> | ||
#If a woman always sees past the 30th day some poskim believe that she doesn't need to worry about the Onah Beynonit. However, many poskim hold that she still needs to worry about her Onah Beynonit.<ref>The Taharat Yisrael 186:13 writes that once a woman always sees past the 30th day we can establish her as having a pattern of not seeing before then. If so, she doesn't need to be concerned about the Onah Beynonit on the 30th day. This idea is also found in the Trumat Hadeshen 247 and Shulchan Aruch YD 186:3. See also Ritva Niddah 15a s.v. amar rabbi shimon. Rav Moshe Feinstein (Igrot Moshe YD 2:72), Rav Ovadia Yosef (Taharat Habayit v. 1 p. 150), and [http://www.yutorah.org/sidebar/lecture.cfm/868501/rabbi-mordechai-i-willig/niddah-shiur-51-negative-veset-onah-beynonit/ Rabbi Mordechai Willig (Niddah Shiur 51)] accept this leniency. However, many achronim disagree and write that this idea of the Trumat Hadeshen only applies to not having to do a bedika before tashmish but not for the topic of veset. This is the opinion of the Chelkat Yakov 2:74, Minchat Yitzchak 6:82, and Badei Hashulchan 186:25 and 189:4. </ref> | #If a woman always sees past the 30th day some poskim believe that she doesn't need to worry about the Onah Beynonit. However, many poskim hold that she still needs to worry about her Onah Beynonit.<ref>The Taharat Yisrael 186:13 writes that once a woman always sees past the 30th day we can establish her as having a pattern of not seeing before then. If so, she doesn't need to be concerned about the Onah Beynonit on the 30th day. This idea is also found in the Trumat Hadeshen 247 and Shulchan Aruch YD 186:3. See also Ritva Niddah 15a s.v. amar rabbi shimon. Rav Moshe Feinstein (Igrot Moshe YD 2:72), Rav Ovadia Yosef (Taharat Habayit v. 1 p. 150), and [http://www.yutorah.org/sidebar/lecture.cfm/868501/rabbi-mordechai-i-willig/niddah-shiur-51-negative-veset-onah-beynonit/ Rabbi Mordechai Willig (Niddah Shiur 51)] accept this leniency. However, many achronim disagree and write that this idea of the Trumat Hadeshen only applies to not having to do a bedika before tashmish but not for the topic of veset. This is the opinion of the Chelkat Yakov 2:74, Minchat Yitzchak 6:82, and Badei Hashulchan 186:25 and 189:4. </ref> | ||
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==How Long is a Veset?== | ==How Long is a Veset?== | ||
#Some Ashkenazic poskim consider a veset 24 hours, the time period when she expects to see blood and also the time period beforehand.<ref>Rav Moshe Feinstein (Igrot Moshe 3:48) is strict for the Or Zaruah. Badei Hashulchan 189:7 is strict for the Or Zaruah.</ref> Others are lenient.<ref>Rav Hershel Schachter (notes to The Laws and Concepts of Niddah by Rabbi Zvi Sobolofsky pg. 308), [http://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/867643/Rabbi%20Mordechai%20I.%20Willig/Niddah%20Shiur%2045%20-%20Timing%20of%20Avi'asaf,%20Veset%20Or%20Zaruah Rabbi Mordechai Willig (Niddah shiur 45 min 35-41)] holds that we can be lenient against the Or Zaruah since that is the opinion of the Shulchan Aruch, Rama, Taz 184:2, and Chavot Daat (quoted in Pitchei Teshuva 184:7). Also, even the Shach 184:7, who is concerned for the Or Zaruah holds that it only applies if she has a fixed veset but since most women don't have that we can be lenient. Taharat Habayit v. 1 pp. 55-58 holds that Sephardim should follow Shulchan Aruch and don't need to follow the Or Zaruah unlike the Ben Ish Chai (Tzav no. 1). Shoshanat Ha'amakim 7:7 agrees</ref> | #Some Ashkenazic poskim consider a veset 24 hours, the time period when she expects to see blood and also the time period beforehand.<ref>Rav Moshe Feinstein (Igrot Moshe 3:48) is strict for the Or Zaruah. Badei Hashulchan 189:7 is strict for the Or Zaruah.</ref> Others are lenient.<ref>Rav Hershel Schachter (notes to The Laws and Concepts of Niddah by Rabbi Zvi Sobolofsky pg. 308), [http://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/867643/Rabbi%20Mordechai%20I.%20Willig/Niddah%20Shiur%2045%20-%20Timing%20of%20Avi'asaf,%20Veset%20Or%20Zaruah Rabbi Mordechai Willig (Niddah shiur 45 min 35-41)] holds that we can be lenient against the Or Zaruah since that is the opinion of the Shulchan Aruch, Rama, Taz 184:2, and Chavot Daat (quoted in Pitchei Teshuva 184:7). Also, even the Shach 184:7, who is concerned for the Or Zaruah holds that it only applies if she has a fixed veset but since most women don't have that we can be lenient.</ref> Sephardim are lenient.<ref> Taharat Habayit v. 1 pp. 55-58 holds that Sephardim should follow Shulchan Aruch and don't need to follow the Or Zaruah unlike the Ben Ish Chai (Tzav no. 1). Shoshanat Ha'amakim 7:7 agrees. Moroccans are also lenient (Magen Avot YD p. 128).</ref> | ||
#If a woman sees for several days we still calculate the veset based on the initial seeing of blood. <ref>*The Raavad (Baalei Hanefesh cited by Bet Yosef 184:5) writes that if a woman always sees blood at night and a bit into the day her veset is established as that night as well as the time that it would extend into the day. The Bet Yosef 184:5 writes that there three opinions about this case whether only the night is established, or both the night and the day, or the night and the hour in the day during which she always sees. Shulchan Aruch 184:5 follows the Raavad. | #If a woman sees for several days we still calculate the veset based on the initial seeing of blood.<ref> | ||
*The Raavad (Baalei Hanefesh cited by Bet Yosef 184:5) writes that if a woman always sees blood at night and a bit into the day her veset is established as that night as well as the time that it would extend into the day. The Bet Yosef 184:5 writes that there three opinions about this case whether only the night is established, or both the night and the day, or the night and the hour in the day during which she always sees. Shulchan Aruch 184:5 follows the Raavad. | |||
*The Raavad (Baalei Hanefesh cited by Bet Yosef 184:6) writes that if a women sees for a few days we look at the entirety of the time she would see as a veset. However, the Rosh (Niddah 9:3) argues that only the time when she initially sees is established as a veset. Shulchan Aruch 184:6 follows the Rosh. The Derisha 184:5 clarifies that the difference between the cases is if she sees for a short period of time it is considered part of the original veset, however, if she sees for several days they aren't included in the original veset and the veset is exclusively established by the original seeing. The Taz 184:9 agrees with the Derisha. Taharat Habayit v. 1 p. 68 follows Shulchan Aruch. | *The Raavad (Baalei Hanefesh cited by Bet Yosef 184:6) writes that if a women sees for a few days we look at the entirety of the time she would see as a veset. However, the Rosh (Niddah 9:3) argues that only the time when she initially sees is established as a veset. Shulchan Aruch 184:6 follows the Rosh. The Derisha 184:5 clarifies that the difference between the cases is if she sees for a short period of time it is considered part of the original veset, however, if she sees for several days they aren't included in the original veset and the veset is exclusively established by the original seeing. The Taz 184:9 agrees with the Derisha. Taharat Habayit v. 1 p. 68 follows Shulchan Aruch. | ||
*The Chavot Daat 184:7 writes that if she stopped seeing for some time and then continues to see then the next day is also considered for the veset. The Pardes Rimonim (184 Shach 16) and Taharat Habayit v. 1 p. 69 disagree.</ref> | *The Chavot Daat 184:7 writes that if she stopped seeing for some time and then continues to see then the next day is also considered for the veset. The Pardes Rimonim (184 Shach 16) and Taharat Habayit v. 1 p. 69 disagree.</ref> | ||
