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Veset: Difference between revisions
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## If a woman always sees past the 30th day some poskim believe that she doesn't need to worry about the Onah Beynonit, however, many poskim hold that she still needs to worry about her Onah Beynonit.<ref>The Taharat Yisrael 186:13 writes that once a woman always sees past the 30th day we can establish her as having a pattern of not seeing before then. If so, she doesn't need to be concerned about the Onah Beynonit on the 30th day. This idea is also found in the Trumat Hadeshen 247 and Shulchan Aruch YD 186:3. See also Ritva Niddah 15a s.v. amar rabbi shimon. Rav Moshe Feinstein (Igrot Moshe YD 2:72), Rav Ovadia Yosef (Taharat Habayit v. 1 p. 150), and [http://www.yutorah.org/sidebar/lecture.cfm/868501/rabbi-mordechai-i-willig/niddah-shiur-51-negative-veset-onah-beynonit/ Rabbi Mordechai Willig (Niddah Shiur 51)] accept this leniency. However, many achronim disagree and write that this idea of the Trumat Hadeshen only applies to not having to do a bedika before tashmish but not for the topic of veset. This is the opinion of the Chelkat Yakov 2:74, Minchat Yitzchak 6:82, and Badei Hashulchan 186:25 and 189:4. </ref> | ## If a woman always sees past the 30th day some poskim believe that she doesn't need to worry about the Onah Beynonit, however, many poskim hold that she still needs to worry about her Onah Beynonit.<ref>The Taharat Yisrael 186:13 writes that once a woman always sees past the 30th day we can establish her as having a pattern of not seeing before then. If so, she doesn't need to be concerned about the Onah Beynonit on the 30th day. This idea is also found in the Trumat Hadeshen 247 and Shulchan Aruch YD 186:3. See also Ritva Niddah 15a s.v. amar rabbi shimon. Rav Moshe Feinstein (Igrot Moshe YD 2:72), Rav Ovadia Yosef (Taharat Habayit v. 1 p. 150), and [http://www.yutorah.org/sidebar/lecture.cfm/868501/rabbi-mordechai-i-willig/niddah-shiur-51-negative-veset-onah-beynonit/ Rabbi Mordechai Willig (Niddah Shiur 51)] accept this leniency. However, many achronim disagree and write that this idea of the Trumat Hadeshen only applies to not having to do a bedika before tashmish but not for the topic of veset. This is the opinion of the Chelkat Yakov 2:74, Minchat Yitzchak 6:82, and Badei Hashulchan 186:25 and 189:4. </ref> | ||
===Uncommon Vestot=== | ===Uncommon Vestot=== | ||
====Increasing Days of the Month==== | |||
# If a woman sees on consecutive days of the month in consecutive months she can establish a veset. Some hold that this is established with 3 periods and others hold it is established with 4 periods. We're strict for both opinions. For example, if she sees in one month on the 15th, the next month on the 16th, the next month on the 17th, and the last month on the 18th according to everyone she establishes a veset that she'll continue to see on consecutive days of the month. However, if she only saw on the 15th through the 18th then she considers it as though she this is an established veset but she is also concerned as though she doesn't have a veset.<ref>There is a dispute in Gemara Niddah 64a between Rav and Shmuel whether the veset of consecutive days of the month is established with 3 periods or only 4 since she needs to establish herself as progressing one day each month. The Rabbenu Chananel (cited by Rosh Niddah 9:3) holds like Rav and the Rambam (Issurei Biyah 8:6) like Shmuel. Rashba ([http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=8922&st=&pgnum=366 Torat Habayit 14b]) concludes that we should be strict for both opinions. This is also the opinion of Shulchan Aruch YD 189:7.</ref> | |||
# Consistently seeing on an earlier day of the month establishes a veset just like seeing consecutively later days.<Ref>Badei Hashulchan 189:58</ref> | |||
# Consistently seeing on days of the month 2 days beyond the last month also establishes a veset. <Ref>Badei Hashulchan 189:58</ref> | |||
# If a woman has a cyclical pattern of seeing on the 15th of the month, next month on the 16th, next on the 17th, then the next month jumps back to the 15th, 16th, 17th, and again 15th, 16th, and 17th, she has established a veset for that pattern.<ref>Shulchan Aruch 189:8. Shach 189:20 holds that this pattern is established even according to Shmuel without seeing on the 18th for each series to create this pattern.</ref> | |||
# In fact, if a woman has a alternating pattern switching between the 15th of the month and the 16th, by seeing this switch 3 times, which is altogether 6 periods, she establishes a veset.<ref>Raavad ([http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=8785&st=&pgnum=51 Baalei Hanefesh p. 53]), Taz 189:10, Shach 189:21. See there in Raavad who treats this as two separate vestot, while the Shach treats it as single cyclical pattern.</ref> | |||
====Increasing or decreasing intervals==== | ====Increasing or decreasing intervals==== | ||
# If a woman sees for a certain intervals that are increasing over time that establishes a veset. There is a dispute if three or four times is necessary to establish a veset. For example, if she sees after 30 days, then after 31, then after 32, the woman would have to consider herself as having a veset but also be strict as though she didn't have a veset.<ref>The Gemara Niddah 64a records a dispute between Rav and Shmuel regarding an increasing veset of days during the month. Rav holds that it is established with three times and Shmuel holds it is established with four times since you need four times in order to establish three increases. Tosfot s.v. itmar extends this idea to increasing intervals. The opinion of Tosfot is codified by Tur and Shulchan Aruch YD 189:5. The Shach 189:6 explains that to establish a veset of increasing intervals for Rav it would take seeing four times which is equal to three intervals and according to Shmuel seeing five times which is equal to four intervals. Taz 189:6 agrees. Shulchan ruch 189:7 rules that we're strict for both the opinion of Rav and Shmuel.</ref> | # If a woman sees for a certain intervals that are increasing over time that establishes a veset. There is a dispute if three or four times is necessary to establish a veset. For example, if she sees after 30 days, then after 31, then after 32, the woman would have to consider herself as having a veset but also be strict as though she didn't have a veset.<ref>The Gemara Niddah 64a records a dispute between Rav and Shmuel regarding an increasing veset of days during the month. Rav holds that it is established with three times and Shmuel holds it is established with four times since you need four times in order to establish three increases. Tosfot s.v. itmar extends this idea to increasing intervals. The opinion of Tosfot is codified by Tur and Shulchan Aruch YD 189:5. The Shach 189:6 explains that to establish a veset of increasing intervals for Rav it would take seeing four times which is equal to three intervals and according to Shmuel seeing five times which is equal to four intervals. Taz 189:6 agrees. Shulchan ruch 189:7 rules that we're strict for both the opinion of Rav and Shmuel.</ref> | ||
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# A decreasing veset is established just like an increasing veset.<ref> Shach 189:9 and Shach 189:68. See Tosfot Niddah 9b s.v. pichta. Sidrei Tahara 189:3 supports the Shach from the Raavad 3:6. The Peleti 189:6 accepts the Raavad's opinion but wonders how it is rationale since eventually the veset should run to the point that she won't see anymore and isn't a natural progression.</ref> | # A decreasing veset is established just like an increasing veset.<ref> Shach 189:9 and Shach 189:68. See Tosfot Niddah 9b s.v. pichta. Sidrei Tahara 189:3 supports the Shach from the Raavad 3:6. The Peleti 189:6 accepts the Raavad's opinion but wonders how it is rationale since eventually the veset should run to the point that she won't see anymore and isn't a natural progression.</ref> | ||
====Veset for Hours==== | ====Veset for Hours==== | ||
# If a woman has a veset for starting to see during a certain hour of the day then she is concerned about her regular non-kavuah vestot only for that hour.<ref>The Raavad (Baalei Hanefesh p. 32) writes that if a woman has a veset only for a specific hour during the day and not for days that can establish a veset for that hour. Shulchan Aruch 189:3 codifies the opinion of the Raavad. Chavot Daat 189:4 explains that if she doesn’t have a veset for days and does have an established hour, she only needs to keep her non-kavuah vestot during that hour that she has a veset for.</ref> | # If a woman has a veset for starting to see during a certain hour of the day then she is concerned about her regular non-kavuah vestot only for that hour.<ref>The Raavad ([http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=8785&st=&pgnum=30 Baalei Hanefesh p. 32]) writes that if a woman has a veset only for a specific hour during the day and not for days that can establish a veset for that hour. Shulchan Aruch 189:3 codifies the opinion of the Raavad. Chavot Daat 189:4 explains that if she doesn’t have a veset for days and does have an established hour, she only needs to keep her non-kavuah vestot during that hour that she has a veset for.</ref> | ||
==Differences between veset kavuah and a non-kavuah veset== | ==Differences between veset kavuah and a non-kavuah veset== | ||
# A veset kavuah is uprooted only after missing it three times, while a non-kavuah veset is uprooted with one time.<Ref>Rav Papa in Niddah 64a says that a non-kavuah veset is established and removed with one time. However, a kavuah veset the Mishna 63b says takes 3 times to establish and remove. Tur and Shulchan Aruch 189:2 codify this.</ref> | # A veset kavuah is uprooted only after missing it three times, while a non-kavuah veset is uprooted with one time.<Ref>Rav Papa in Niddah 64a says that a non-kavuah veset is established and removed with one time. However, a kavuah veset the Mishna 63b says takes 3 times to establish and remove. Tur and Shulchan Aruch 189:2 codify this.</ref> | ||
