Davening with a Minyan: Difference between revisions
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===Davening in an Adjacent Room=== | ===Davening in an Adjacent Room=== | ||
[[Image:Fenceminyan.jpg|250px|right]] | [[Image:Fenceminyan.jpg|250px|right]] | ||
# If there is a minyan in one room and one is davening in an adjacent room he can answer their kaddish, kedusha, and barchu, and according to many poskim his davening is considered tefillah btzibbur as long as he can hear them. This is true even though he couldn't be counted towards the primary ten for the minyan.<ref>Meiri Pesachim 85b s.v. umitoch, Aruch Hashulchan 55:23, Chazon Ish (Orchot Rabbenu v. 3 p. 208), [https://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=22684&st=&pgnum=135 Shraga Hameir 8:77:6], Rav Yisrael Reisman (RJJ v. 75 p. 20). Chazon Ish thought that if someone is in a room close to the shul with the minyan inside and he hears them davening he can daven with them and it is considered tefillah btzibbur. Aruch Hashulchan 55:23 and Shraga Hameir 8:77:6 agree. However, it seems that Radvaz 2:650 disagrees. Towards the beginning he notes that if someone is in a room that is considered sufficiently part of the shul he doesn't count the ten for the minyan and he is not davening tefillah btzibbur. However, he does consider a room with no other entrance besides the shul to be an extension of the shul and someone davening there would count for the minyan. Mishna Brurah 55:58 cites this Radvaz as saying that someone in another room does not join for a minyan unless that smaller room is majority open to the larger room or there are no other entrances to that room. He seems to be at odds with the Chazon Ish and Aruch Hashulchan. Otzar Halachot v. 1 p. 330 and Orchot Rabbenu note this dispute between the Radvaz and Aruch Hashulchan. Similarly, Mishna Brurah 55:52 quotes those who say that if you disagree with the Rashba and seeing into the minyan is not considered sufficient to join for the ten of the minyan, it is not considered tefillah btzibbur. Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach in Halichot Shlomo (Tefillah p. 64) writes that someone standing in the lobby of the shul is not considered davening tefillah btzibbur even though he could hear them unless he can see them. Even seeing them isn't so great since it is a big dispute if he could join for a minyan that way. Rav Shlomo Zalman notes that it is not clear in the rishonim and perhaps Tosfot r"h 27b think unlike the Aruch Hashulchan but the Meiri Pesachim 85b s.v. umitoch seems to be a proof for the Aruch Hashulchan.</ref> Many others disagree and do not consider it to be davening tefillah btzibbur unless you are able to join for a minyan in the same room.<Ref>Chayey Adam 30:1, Mishna Brurah 55:52, Mishna Brurah 55:28 citing Radvaz, Halichot Shlomo (ch. 5 Dvar Halacha fnt. 18).</ref> | # If there is a minyan in one room and one is davening in an adjacent room he can answer their kaddish, kedusha, and barchu, and according to many poskim his davening is considered tefillah btzibbur as long as he can hear them. This is true even though he couldn't be counted towards the primary ten for the minyan.<ref>Meiri Pesachim 85b s.v. umitoch, Aruch Hashulchan 55:23, Chazon Ish (Orchot Rabbenu v. 3 p. 208), [https://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=22684&st=&pgnum=135 Shraga Hameir 8:77:6], [https://www.yutorah.org/sidebar/lecture.cfm/899415/rabbi-hershel-schachter/berachos-100-49b-50b-ya-aleh-veyevo-in-retzeh-how-to-be-mezamen-zimmun-lemafrea-grape-juice/ Rav Hershel Schachter (Brachot Shiur 100, min 38)], Rav Yisrael Reisman (RJJ v. 75 p. 20). Chazon Ish thought that if someone is in a room close to the shul with the minyan inside and he hears them davening he can daven with them and it is considered tefillah btzibbur. Aruch Hashulchan 55:23 and Shraga Hameir 8:77:6 agree. However, it seems that Radvaz 2:650 disagrees. Towards the beginning he notes that if someone is in a room that is considered sufficiently part of the shul he doesn't count the ten for the minyan and he is not davening tefillah btzibbur. However, he does consider a room with no other entrance besides the shul to be an extension of the shul and someone davening there would count for the minyan. Mishna Brurah 55:58 cites this Radvaz as saying that someone in another room does not join for a minyan unless that smaller room is majority open to the larger room or there are no other entrances to that room. He seems to be at odds with the Chazon Ish and Aruch Hashulchan. Otzar Halachot v. 1 p. 330 and Orchot Rabbenu note this dispute between the Radvaz and Aruch Hashulchan. Similarly, Mishna Brurah 55:52 quotes those who say that if you disagree with the Rashba and seeing into the minyan is not considered sufficient to join for the ten of the minyan, it is not considered tefillah btzibbur. Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach in Halichot Shlomo (Tefillah p. 64) writes that someone standing in the lobby of the shul is not considered davening tefillah btzibbur even though he could hear them unless he can see them. Even seeing them isn't so great since it is a big dispute if he could join for a minyan that way. Rav Shlomo Zalman notes that it is not clear in the rishonim and perhaps Tosfot r"h 27b think unlike the Aruch Hashulchan but the Meiri Pesachim 85b s.v. umitoch seems to be a proof for the Aruch Hashulchan. Kaf Hachayim 55:73 seems to be lenient as long as you can hear the minyan.</ref> Many others disagree and do not consider it to be davening tefillah btzibbur unless you are able to join for a minyan in the same room.<Ref>Chayey Adam 30:1, Mishna Brurah 55:52, Mishna Brurah 55:28 citing Radvaz, Halichot Shlomo (ch. 5 Dvar Halacha fnt. 18). Mishna Brurah 55:52 quotes those who say that if someone is davening in the women's section they should come down to the main men's section in order to fulfill tefillah btzibbur.</ref> | ||
# If there is a larger room and a smaller room completely open to that larger one if the majority of the minyan is in the large room that is considered one minyan. If the majority of the minyan is in the small room they don't combine.<ref>Gemara Eruvin 92b. Tosfot 92b s.v. Tisha explains that the gemara is relevant to joining together for a minyan. Shulchan Aruch O.C. 55:16 quotes this gemara as the halacha.</ref> | # If there is a larger room and a smaller room completely open to that larger one if the majority of the minyan is in the large room that is considered one minyan. If the majority of the minyan is in the small room they don't combine.<ref>Gemara Eruvin 92b. Tosfot 92b s.v. Tisha explains that the gemara is relevant to joining together for a minyan. Shulchan Aruch O.C. 55:16 quotes this gemara as the halacha.</ref> | ||
# Some say that as long members of the minyan can see each other they can join together for a minyan.<ref>Shulchan Aruch O.C. 55:14</ref> One should only rely on this opinion in an extenuating circumstance.<ref>Mishna Brurah 55:57</ref> | # Some say that as long members of the minyan can see each other they can join together for a minyan.<ref>Shulchan Aruch O.C. 55:14. | ||
* Can you join people in two rooms to make a minyan? The Gemara Eruvin 92b indicates that if there’s a majority of the minyan in a large room and the minority of the minyan in a room that is almost completely open to the large room they can join for a minyan. Barring those two conditions people in two rooms or two houses can’t join for a minyan. However, in terms of answering a dvar shebekedusha if there is a minyan in one place, those standing in another room can answer since there is a minyan in the place of the dvar shebekedusha. This is also the opinion of Tosfot Pesachim 85b s.v. vchen, Tosfot Harosh Sotah 38b s.v. umechitza, Tosfot Eruvin 92b s.v. tisha, Rashba Eruvin 92b s.v. eika, Ritva Eruvin 92b s.v. vhikshu, Ritva r"h 27b s.v. vha, and Ran r”h 27b s.v. mishna. Tosfot Sotah 38b s.v. mechitza seems to agree. | |||
* The Ramban Pesachim 85b s.v. amar doesn’t distinguish between dvar shebekedusha and creating a minyan. In order for people to join together they need to be in the same room or a small room which is almost completely open to a large room. He adds one other case of a courtyard joining to a house independent of the size of the courtyard and the house. It would emerge from the Ramban that a person outside of the room of the minyan can’t even answer dvarim shebekedusha if he’s not where the minyan is. Ritva r”h 27b s.v. vha and Meiri Pesachim 85b quote this opinion and reject it. | |||
* Rashba responsa 1:96 holds that you can join people on the elevated platform bimah with a fence in the middle of the shul with the rest of the shul because that bimah is meant to service the shul and the people on the bimah can see those in the shul and the other way around. Shulchan Aruch O.C. 55:19 quotes the Rashba’s first reason. Shulchan Aruch O.C. 55:14 seems to be premised on the Rashba’s second reason. | |||
* Biur Halacha 195:1 s.v. shtey cites the Rashbash who thinks that you can't join two groups in two houses to create a minyan even for zimmun purposes even if they see each other. Ramban Pesachim 95b also suggests this. Pri Chadash to 55:13, Magen Avraham 55:12, and Shulchan Aruch Harav 55:16 accept the Rashba. Maamar Mordechai 55:14 argues that even Shulchan Aruch does not accept the Rashba. Salmat Chaim 51 thinks that we should not rely on the Rashba but someone who does shouldn’t be scorned. Mishna Brurah 55:48 quotes the Magen Avraham and those who accept the Rashba and concludes that some achronim disagree. Kaf Hachayim 55:75 quotes the dispute and writes that one should be strict.</ref> One should only rely on this opinion in an extenuating circumstance.<ref>Mishna Brurah 55:57</ref> Some say that even this opinion only allowed it between outside the shul and the shul itself but not the shul and the women's section.<ref>Aruch Hashulchan 55:20, Shevet Halevi 9:20:1. Aruch Hashulchan writes that although someone outside of shul can join with a minyan as long as he can see them but someone in the women's section can't join since that is a completely different room. See [https://www.hebrewbooks.org/media/%D7%AA%D7%A4%D7%99%D7%9C%D7%94_%D7%91%D7%A6%D7%99%D7%91%D7%95%D7%A8_%D7%95%D7%91%D7%A8%D7%9B%D7%AA_%D7%9B%D7%94%D7%A0%D7%99%D7%9D_%D7%91%D7%91%D7%99%D7%93%D7%95%D7%93.pdf Rabbi Tzvi Reisman's article on outdoor minyanim p. 5] as to how to explain the distinction of the Aruch Hashulchan. Shevet Halevi reasons that the Rashba was only lenient when the people see each other and also the area is secondary to the rest of the shul. However, those who are in the women's section, that section wasn't built to be a function of the main shul and therefore they can't combine.</ref> | |||
==Conditions to do Chazarat Hashatz== | ==Conditions to do Chazarat Hashatz== | ||
