Davening with a Minyan: Difference between revisions
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# According to the halacha, it is permissible to start [[Chazarat HaShatz]] even if 4 people in the [[minyan]] are still [[davening]] the silent [[Shmoneh Esrei]]. However, it is better to wait until there are ten who are able to answer before starting [[Chazarat HaShatz]].<ref>Halacha Brurah 55:18-9, Mishna Brurah 55:32</ref> | # According to the halacha, it is permissible to start [[Chazarat HaShatz]] even if 4 people in the [[minyan]] are still [[davening]] the silent [[Shmoneh Esrei]]. However, it is better to wait until there are ten who are able to answer before starting [[Chazarat HaShatz]].<ref>Halacha Brurah 55:18-9, Mishna Brurah 55:32</ref> | ||
==What is Considered Davening with a Minyan?== | ==What is Considered Davening with a Minyan?== | ||
===Davening another Shemona Esrei than the Congregation=== | |||
# Is davening Shemona Esrei when the tzibur is davening a different Shemona Esrei is that considered tefillah btzibur? Many achronim that it is considered tefillah btzibur, while many others disagree.<ref> | # Is davening Shemona Esrei when the tzibur is davening a different Shemona Esrei is that considered tefillah btzibur? Many achronim that it is considered tefillah btzibur, while many others disagree.<ref> | ||
* Magen Avraham 90:16 and 236:3 writes that it isn't. His proof is from Avoda Zara 4b that forbad davening Mussaf on Rosh Hashana at home within the first three hours of the day when the Tzibur is davening Shacharit in Shul. However, the Eliya Rabba 236:7 argues that it is considered tefillah btzibur if you are actually in the shul. Tzlach Brachot 6a writes that even the Magen Avraham would agree with the Eliya Rabba if he was actually in the shul together. Magen Giborim A"H 90:14, Pri Megadim M"Z 236:4, and Mishna Brurah 90:30 agree. | * Magen Avraham 90:16 and 236:3 writes that if someone is davening Mussaf while the congregation is davening Shacharit it isn't considered tefilah btzibur and not even considered to be the same time as when the tzibur is davening. His proof is from Avoda Zara 4b that forbad davening Mussaf on Rosh Hashana at home within the first three hours of the day when the Tzibur is davening Shacharit in Shul. However, the Eliya Rabba 236:7 argues that it is considered tefillah btzibur if you are actually in the shul. Tzlach Brachot 6a writes that even the Magen Avraham would agree with the Eliya Rabba if he was actually in the shul together. Magen Giborim A"H 90:14, Pri Megadim M"Z 236:4, and Mishna Brurah 90:30 agree. Salmat Chaim 113 agrees with the Tzlach but see the footnote which understands that he never meant that. Tzitz Eliezer 14:6 reprints a letter from Rav Tzvi Pesach Frank which accepts the Mishna Brurah as holding that it is completely tefillah btzibbur. | ||
* Rav Yitzchak Elchanan in Bear Yitzchak 20 proves from the Yerushalmi Brachot 4:6 that the Magen Avraham is correct that it isn’t considered tefillah btzibur even if you’re in the same shul davening together with them a different Shemona Esrei unlike the Tzlach. Igrot Moshe OC 4:68 argues with his proof but agrees with the Magen Avraham. Halacha Brurah 90:26 cites the dispute. | * Rav Yitzchak Elchanan in Bear Yitzchak 20 proves from the Yerushalmi Brachot 4:6 that the Magen Avraham is correct that it isn’t considered tefillah btzibur even if you’re in the same shul davening together with them a different Shemona Esrei unlike the Tzlach. Tzitz Eliezer 13:38 agrees. Igrot Moshe OC 4:68 argues with his proof but agrees with the Magen Avraham. Halacha Brurah 90:26 cites the dispute. Halacha Brurah proves that the Tzlach is incorrect because of the Magen Avraham 236:3. | ||
* See Dirshu 90:32 who cites the Chavaselet Hasharon 2 and Orchot Rabbenu v. 1 p. 51 that even the Tzlach never meant that it is considered tefillah btzibur. </ref> | * See Dirshu 90:32 who cites the Chavaselet Hasharon 2 and Orchot Rabbenu v. 1 p. 51 that even the Tzlach never meant that it is considered tefillah btzibur. </ref> | ||
# Someone from Diaspora who is davening a weekday Shemona Esrei with an Israeli minyan on the second day of Yom Tov that is considered Tefillah Btzibur.<ref>Yom Tov Sheni Khilchato (9:6 cited by Dirshu 90:32) quoting Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach and Rav Elyashiv</ref> In the opposite case with an Israeli in the Diaspora davening a weekday Shemona Esrei with the congregation davening a Yom Tov Shemona Esrei is a dispute if that is Tefillah Btzibur.<ref>Yom Tov Sheni Khilchato (ch. 3 fnt. 43-5, cited by Dirshu 90:32)</ref> | # Someone from Diaspora who is davening a weekday Shemona Esrei with an Israeli minyan on the second day of Yom Tov that is considered Tefillah Btzibur.<ref>Yom Tov Sheni Khilchato (9:6 cited by Dirshu 90:32) quoting Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach and Rav Elyashiv</ref> In the opposite case with an Israeli in the Diaspora davening a weekday Shemona Esrei with the congregation davening a Yom Tov Shemona Esrei is a dispute if that is Tefillah Btzibur.<ref>Yom Tov Sheni Khilchato (ch. 3 fnt. 43-5, cited by Dirshu 90:32)</ref> | ||
===Starting after the Congregation Started=== | |||
# Some hold that even if the Tzibbur is in the middle of Shemona Esrei and one starts one's silent Shemona Esrei that is considered Tefillah Btzibbur.<ref>Igrot Moshe OC 3:4</ref> | # Some hold that even if the Tzibbur is in the middle of Shemona Esrei and one starts one's silent Shemona Esrei that is considered Tefillah Btzibbur.<ref>Igrot Moshe OC 3:4</ref> | ||
===Davening in an Adjacent Room=== | ===Davening in an Adjacent Room=== | ||
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# If there is a larger room and a smaller room completely open to that larger one if the majority of the minyan is in the large room that is considered one minyan. If the majority of the minyan is in the small room they don't combine.<ref>Gemara Eruvin 92b. Tosfot 92b s.v. Tisha explains that the gemara is relevant to joining together for a minyan. Shulchan Aruch O.C. 55:16 quotes this gemara as the halacha.</ref> | # If there is a larger room and a smaller room completely open to that larger one if the majority of the minyan is in the large room that is considered one minyan. If the majority of the minyan is in the small room they don't combine.<ref>Gemara Eruvin 92b. Tosfot 92b s.v. Tisha explains that the gemara is relevant to joining together for a minyan. Shulchan Aruch O.C. 55:16 quotes this gemara as the halacha.</ref> | ||
# Some say that as long members of the minyan can see each other they can join together for a minyan.<ref>Shulchan Aruch O.C. 55:14</ref> One should only rely on this opinion in an extenuating circumstance.<ref>Mishna Brurah 55:57</ref> | # Some say that as long members of the minyan can see each other they can join together for a minyan.<ref>Shulchan Aruch O.C. 55:14</ref> One should only rely on this opinion in an extenuating circumstance.<ref>Mishna Brurah 55:57</ref> | ||
==Conditions to do Chazarat Hashatz== | |||
# If ten individuals davened separately and then joined together afterwards most poskim hold that they can not recite chazrat hashatz since they didn't daven together btzibbur.<ref>Shulchan Aruch O.C. 69:1 holds that they can recite chazarat hashatz even if ten people davened separately and now joined together. However, the Mishna Brurah 69:1 follows the Radvaz and Magen Avraham 69:4 who argue that since they each davened separately there is no way for them to join together afterwards to create a tzibur that is obligated and able to recite chazarat hashatz. See Kaf Hachayim on Shulchan Arukh, Orach Chayim 69:7 who accepts Shulchan Aruch. Tzitz Eliezer 14:6 and Har Tzvi 1:51 accept the Mishna Brurah.</ref> | |||
# If nine people davening Shemona Esrei together and afterwards one person entered they can not recite chazarat hashatz.<ref>Tzitz Eliezer 14:6</ref> | |||
# If there were ten people in the room and six were davening and four were not they can nonetheless recite chazarat hashatz.<ref>Mishna Brurah 69:8 based on Magen Avraham</ref> | |||
##Even if these six who davened Shemona Esrei started and finished at different times but all overlapped at some point they can recite chazarat hashatz.<ref>Piskei Teshuvot 69:1 citing Minchat Elazar 2:77 and Chelek Levi 45</ref> | |||
##Even if these four people who were not davening some of them left while the six were davening Shemona Esrei and returned or others returned they can still recite chazarat hashatz.<Ref>Piskei Teshuvot 69:1 citing Keren Ldovid 16</ref> | |||
##If some of those six people didn't finish Shemona Esrei but there are nine people who can answer amen to the shaliach tzibbur they can start the chazarat hashatz without further delay.<ref>Piskei Teshuvot 69:1 citing Minchat Yitzchak 1:57</ref> | |||
## If one of those six people made a mistake by omitting something that they had to because of the day such as Yaaleh Vyavo on Rosh Chodesh and need to repeat Shemona Esrei nonetheless they can recite chazarat hashatz.<ref>Piskei Teshuvot 69:1 citing Eretz Tzvi 1:39</reF> | |||
# If there were ten people in the room and only five or fewer were davening they can not recite chazarat hashatz.<ref>Biur Halacha 69:1 leaves this question unresolved whether according to the Radvaz they are allowed to do chazart hashatz. Tzitz Eliezer 14:6 concludes that they should not do chazarat hashatz.</ref> Others hold that they can.<ref>Rav Meir Arik in Imrei Yosher 2:9 holds that although they may not get into this situation initially and should daven in a proper minyan and hear chazarata hashatz. However, after the fact they can and should recite chazarat hashatz in order to hear kedusha. Piskei Teshuvot 69:1 follows this Imrei Yoshar and quotes others who agree including Tehillah Ldovid 69:2, Minchat Yitzchak 1:57, and Afarsekta Daniya 2:16. Har Tzvi 1:51 based on Maharam Shik 44 and Tzitz Eliezer 14:6 who do not accept this distinction.</ref> The same is true if there were ten people in the room and five davened together and one davens his silent shemona esrei together with the chazarat hashatz aloud that is subject to the above debate if they can do chazarat hashatz.<ref>Imrei Yoshar 2:9</ref> | |||
==Who Counts for a Minyan?== | ==Who Counts for a Minyan?== | ||
