Halachot of Dating: Difference between revisions

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== Dating ==
== Dating ==
The basic halachot of dating are a difficult balance. On one hand, the couple must be able to meet one another as such that they can feel comfortable establishing a home together. On the other hand, while the couple are unmarried they must be careful to abide by the full halachic restrictions of how a man and woman should behave. They cannot touch one another (shomer negiah) nor can they seclude themselves together (yichud). Further many communities have adopted different perspectives about social interaction between men and women.
The basic halachot of dating are a difficult balance. On one hand, the couple must be able to meet one another as such that they can feel comfortable establishing a home together. On the other hand, while the couple are unmarried they must be careful to abide by the full halachic restrictions of how a man and woman should behave. They cannot touch one another ([[Negiah|shomer negiah]]) nor can they seclude themselves together ([[yichud]]). Further many communities have adopted different perspectives about social interaction between men and women.


Because of the halachic difficulties posed by dating- different communities have established different standards on how to date. Communities have traditionally relied on a matchmaker while other communities have men ask out women.   Communities also have established clear practices on the length of time dating prior to engagement.
Because of the halachic difficulties posed by dating- different communities have established different standards on how to date. Communities have traditionally relied on a matchmaker, while other communities have men ask out women. Communities also have established clear practices on the length of time dating prior to engagement.


== Bashert ==
== Bashert ==
The Yiddish word "bashert" is used in Jewish folklore to mean that every man and woman has a preordained soulmate. "Bashert" literally means "fate" in Yiddish.<ref>Much sourcing and analysis for the following sections relies on the work Kafnita Debavel
The Yiddish word "''bashert''" is used in Jewish folklore to mean that every man and woman has a preordained soulmate. "''Bashert''" literally means "fate" in Yiddish.<ref>Much sourcing and analysis for the following sections relies on the work Kafnita Debavel


check out following article [https://www.torahmusings.com/2021/11/marriage-and-free-will/ marriage and free will]</ref>
check out following article [https://www.torahmusings.com/2021/11/marriage-and-free-will/ marriage and free will]</ref>


It is not so simple- among the Talmudic commentators there is a wide variety of opinion about how couples are designated for one another. In the opening of Masechet Sota the Talmud records that forty days before the birth of a child, a voice calls out from Mount Sinai and declares "this child will marry so- and so." The clear implication is that match's are preordained. However the Talmud also declares that couples are set up according to the character of the bride and groom. These two statements set up a contradiction over whether the match is preordained or based on one's behavior during their life.  
It is not so simple. Among the Talmudic commentators there is a wide variety of opinion about how couples are designated for one another. In the opening of Masechet Sotah<ref>Sotah 2a</ref> the Talmud records that forty days before the birth of a child, a voice calls out from Mount Sinai and declares "this child will marry so- and so." The clear implication is that match's are preordained. However the Talmud also declares that couples are set up according to the character of the bride and groom. These two statements set up a contradiction over whether the match is preordained or based on one's behavior during their life.  


Indeed, the idea of bashert is fundamentally problematic? How do we know we'll find the right person? Why can't we choose?
Indeed, the idea of ''bashert'' is fundamentally problematic? How do we know we'll find the right person? Why can't we choose?


Some argue that belief in a bashert contradicts man's free will and would result in people having a limited ability to perform the mitzvah of marriage. Therefore, they reject the idea of bashert completely and assert that everything is in the hands of individuals.<ref>Meiri Sotah 2a  
Some argue that belief in a ''bashert'' contradicts man's free will and would result in people having a limited ability to perform the mitzvah of marriage. Therefore, they reject the idea of bashert completely and assert that everything is in the hands of individuals.<ref>Meiri Sotah 2a  


Shmoneh Perekim 8
Shmoneh Perekim 8
Line 22: Line 22:
Kovetz Mamrim page 41</ref>
Kovetz Mamrim page 41</ref>


Some understand individuals to be in full control of their choice of spouse. It is only that because it is so difficult for each man and woman to find someone who they like and in turn are liked by that Hashem assists.<ref>Tashbetz 2.1</ref> Were it not for Hashem to assist- the couple would not be able to be brought together.
Some understand individuals to be in full control of their choice of spouse. It is only that because it is so difficult for each man and woman to find someone who they like and in turn are liked by that Hashem assists.<ref>Tashbetz 2.1</ref> Were it not for Hashem to assist, the couple would not be able to be brought together.


In the view of the Zohar, a soul exists of male and female halves that are placed into a man and woman respectively. When the right couple comes together, the soul is reunited. The Zohar says that the righteous are guaranteed that they will find their soul mate.
In the view of the Zohar,<ref>NEEDS A SOURCE</ref> a soul exists of male and female halves that are placed into a man and woman respectively. When the right couple comes together, the soul is reunited. The Zohar says that the righteous are guaranteed that they will find their soul mate.


== Dating and Its Difficulties ==
== Dating and Its Difficulties ==

Revision as of 21:59, 16 July 2024

Dating

The basic halachot of dating are a difficult balance. On one hand, the couple must be able to meet one another as such that they can feel comfortable establishing a home together. On the other hand, while the couple are unmarried they must be careful to abide by the full halachic restrictions of how a man and woman should behave. They cannot touch one another (shomer negiah) nor can they seclude themselves together (yichud). Further many communities have adopted different perspectives about social interaction between men and women.

Because of the halachic difficulties posed by dating- different communities have established different standards on how to date. Communities have traditionally relied on a matchmaker, while other communities have men ask out women. Communities also have established clear practices on the length of time dating prior to engagement.

Bashert

The Yiddish word "bashert" is used in Jewish folklore to mean that every man and woman has a preordained soulmate. "Bashert" literally means "fate" in Yiddish.[1]

It is not so simple. Among the Talmudic commentators there is a wide variety of opinion about how couples are designated for one another. In the opening of Masechet Sotah[2] the Talmud records that forty days before the birth of a child, a voice calls out from Mount Sinai and declares "this child will marry so- and so." The clear implication is that match's are preordained. However the Talmud also declares that couples are set up according to the character of the bride and groom. These two statements set up a contradiction over whether the match is preordained or based on one's behavior during their life.

Indeed, the idea of bashert is fundamentally problematic? How do we know we'll find the right person? Why can't we choose?

Some argue that belief in a bashert contradicts man's free will and would result in people having a limited ability to perform the mitzvah of marriage. Therefore, they reject the idea of bashert completely and assert that everything is in the hands of individuals.[3]

Some understand individuals to be in full control of their choice of spouse. It is only that because it is so difficult for each man and woman to find someone who they like and in turn are liked by that Hashem assists.[4] Were it not for Hashem to assist, the couple would not be able to be brought together.

In the view of the Zohar,[5] a soul exists of male and female halves that are placed into a man and woman respectively. When the right couple comes together, the soul is reunited. The Zohar says that the righteous are guaranteed that they will find their soul mate.

Dating and Its Difficulties

The Gemara describes the process of matching a couple as difficult as "spliting the Yam Suf (Sea of Reads)."[6] This enigmatic statement refer to the almost supernatural difficulties of match making. One understanding of this expression is that Hashem's role is as miraculous in the process of dating as in the process of taking the Jewish people from Egypt.[7]

Parental Objections

Technically, the halacha is that if parents object to a child’s shidduch, the child is not necessarily bound by that request.[8]

There are several qualifications to that statement

  1. Some say that if the parent has reasonable grounds for suspecting that the shidduch will harm their child's wellbeing, the child is bound to listen. [9]
  2. If the parents are seriously pained by the shidduch, some poskim hold that one must listen to one’s parents. [10]
  3. In any case of parental disapproval, one should consult a rabbi. Even when the halacha is that one doesn't need to obey the parents’ wishes on this issue, a wise person would certainly take his parents’ position into consideration as they usually have significantly more experience and insight.[11]

Looking at One's Date

  1. It is a mitzvah for a man to see the woman he intends to marry[12]
  2. Generally speaking it is normally forbidden for a man to look closely at a woman. However, when it comes to dating a man is permitted to look closely at a woman in order to see he is attracted to her.[13] However, he may not look in an inappropriate way (derech zenut).[14] It is considered inappropriate for a man to stare solely for the purpose of deriving pleasure from the woman's beauty.[15]
  3. Many Poskim think that it is not appropriate for a boy to demand a shidduch picture before going out.[16]

Age for Marriage

See Right Age to Marry page.

Yichud

See the Yichud page.

  1. A couple should be extra vigilant regarding the halachot of yichud during dating, especially after engagement.
  2. While dating or engaged, a couple should not sleep in the same house even if there’s no issue of yichud. For example, if they’re visiting one another for Shabbos, one should stay at a friend or neighbor.
  3. Once someone is engaged or at a point that they’re emotionally comfortable with each other to discuss private issues (libo gas ba)¸ according to many poskim they are not allowed to be alone, even if the door is open to a public domain.[17] If they’re actually in public or completely visible to the public there is no yichud at all. Also, having someone that breaks yichud like the man’s mother or sister, the woman’s father or brother, or a married couple is effective even for someone who is libo gas ba.[18]
  4. If a dating or engaged couple wants to enter an apartment and avoid yichud, they should leave the door to the hallway wide open and remain in a place where they're visible to the hallway.[19] Going to another room in the apartment is forbidden since it isn’t common for someone to enter unannounced even if the door is actually open.[20] This only works at a time when people are generally walking through the hallway every few minutes but not late into the night when people aren't around.[21]
  5. If a dating or engaged couple is at one of their parents’ homes and the parents are home but upstairs, there is no issue of yichud.[22]
  6. A dating or engaged couple can drive together in the car on a road that cars or people pass by at least once every ten minutes. A couple should not park at night on a quiet street in order to talk to each other. [23]
  7. Some poskim permit going on a date to an escape room since it is observed by a camera at all times which is considered like it is open to the public.[24] Other poskim, however, hold that it is better to avoid.[25]

Revealing Information

See the Lashon Hara page.

  1. It is forbidden to find something seriously negative in a shidduch.[26]
  2. If someone asks about a negative trait in a shidduch one may not lie.[27]
  3. One doesn't have to reveal negative information before going out. One should do so when the two think that they are seriously considering getting married.[28]

Following Women in the Street

See the Inappropriate Staring at the Opposite Gender page.

  1. Even though today it isn't possible for a man not to walk behind a woman at all when walking in the street, still a person should be careful what he looks at when walking.[29]

Giving Gifts

  1. Often times in relationships, a couple will give gifts to one another
  2. There is no concern that giving such a gift is considered kiddushin, as that is clearly not their intention.[30] Similarly, giving the engagement ring is not a concern of kiddushin as they do not intend for that to be kiddushin.[31] Nonetheless, it is proper that a dating or engaged couple avoid giving each other mishloach manot.[32]
  3. A man is prohibited from giving mishloach manot to a woman or vice versa. Some explain that it isn’t an appropriate interaction, while others explain that there is a concern that people will think that they are married even though they aren’t. Some permit a man giving mishloach to a woman if his intentions are actually completely pure.[33]

Date Specific Shaylot

Paint Night, Wax sculptures

  1. See Drawing a Pasuk Respecting_Holy_Books#Writing_Pesukim
  2. See Drawing a Sun, Moon or Stars Drawing_or_Sculpting_Forbidden_Images#Sun.2C_Moon.2C_and_Stars
  3. Making a human sculptures Drawing_or_Sculpting_Forbidden_Images#Human_Images

Art Museums

  1. See Visiting Art Museums
  2. See Kippah

Movie

  1. See Internet,_TV,_Social_Media

Sports Games

  1. See Inappropriate Staring at the Opposite Gender

Ice Skating, Archery

  1. See Modesty
  2. See Inappropriate Staring at the Opposite Gender
  3. Catching her if she falls see Negiah

Arcade, Casino, Bingo

  1. Regarding gambling see Minhagim_of_Chanukah#Dreidel

Going to the Zoo

  1. Regarding Brachos when seeing certain animals see Bracha for an Unusual Creature.

Scavenger Hunt in Barnes&Nobles

  1. See Deceitful Practices#Window Shopping

Hotel Lobby

  1. See Marit Ayin

Engagement

Proposal

It is not a proper practice for a man to get down on a knee to propose to his kallah.[34]

After the man gives her the ring, one of the couple should recite the beracha hatov vehameitiv on behalf of both of them.[35]

The proposal should be done in a private way and not with other friends there or videoed for the whole world to see.[36]

Broken Engagement

Making a Shidduch

Making a shidduch is included in the mitzvah of imitating Hashem, as He made the first shidduch between Adam and Chava.[37] Making a shidduch or even trying to make a shidduch is a tremendous mitzvah and an incredibly important activity. [38]Even if one just makes a suggestion and a shadchan takes it over, he still gets credit for the mitzvah of making the shidduch.[39]


Sources

  1. ↑ Much sourcing and analysis for the following sections relies on the work Kafnita Debavel check out following article marriage and free will
  2. ↑ Sotah 2a
  3. ↑ Meiri Sotah 2a Shmoneh Perekim 8 Shut Rambam 436 Kovetz Mamrim page 41
  4. ↑ Tashbetz 2.1
  5. ↑ NEEDS A SOURCE
  6. ↑ Sota 2a
  7. ↑ Meiri Sotah 2a
  8. ↑ The Maharik (responsa 164) writes about a case where a young man’s parents don't want their son to marry a certain young woman whom he is interested in marrying. He posits three reasons why the son isn't bound by his parents’ wishes in this case. First, Kibbud Av V’em primarily means servicing a parent, but does not require listening to them in ways that don't directly benefit them. Second, Kibbud Av V’em is a mitzvah which doesn't need to come at one's own expense, and losing a potential spouse is worth more than money. Finally, since getting married is a mitzvah, a parent can't prevent a child from doing a mitzvah. Rama Y.D. 240:25 codifies this Maharik. Gra 240:36 and Chazon Ish YD 149:8 support the Maharik.
  9. ↑ Sefer Chasidim 564 writes that although parents generally cannot object to a child getting married, if the potential shidduch would be spiritually hazardous for their child, the child must listen to their parents. His proof is that Yaakov listened to Yitzchak not to marry any of the women of Kenaan. On this basis, Yalkut Yosef (Kibbud Av V’em p. 438) and Rav Aryeh Leib Shteinman (K'ayal Tarog Shidduchin p. 46) write that if the prospective young woman or man isn’t actually a good fit spiritually, the children certainly must listen to their parents. Yalkut Yosef clarifies that the Maharik (see next footnote) agrees with this. Rav Willig (oral communication) thought that this is a very important consideration when applying the Maharik.
  10. ↑ Meishiv Davar 2:50 says that if the parents are pained by a certain shidduch, the child should listen to them. Rav Aryeh Leib Shteinman (K'ayal Tarog Shidduchin p. 46) agrees.
  11. ↑ Rav Schachter (Mussar Shmooze on Dating min 16). Similarly, Shevet Halevi 4:124, Tzitz Eliezer 13:78, and Yalkut Yosef (Kibbud Av V’em p. 437) all hold that even though one doesn't have to listen to one's parents, he should do everything in his power to get them on his side to agree with the shidduch.
  12. ↑ Kiddushin 41a
  13. ↑ Rambam Isurei Biyah 21:3, Shulchan Aruch EH 21:3, Nitai Gavriel Shidduchim p. 84
  14. ↑ Shulchan Aruch E.H. 21:3, Shevet Halevi 5:200
  15. ↑ Otzar HaPoskim Even Haezer 23 footnote 31
  16. ↑ He quoted the Chabiner Rav, Rav Dovid Feinstein, Rav Moshe Heinemann, Rav Shmuel Fuerst, and Rav Chaim Kanievsky as all expressing disapproval of this practice because either it doesn't give the girl a fair chance, pictures can be deceiving, and it isn't tzanua for a girl to be giving out her picture.
  17. ↑ The Chelkat Mechokek 22:13 writes that a person who is comfortable around a certain woman is forbidden to seclude himself with her in an area open to the public. The Taz 22:9, however, disagrees and permits it. Chida (Birkei Yosef 22:6 and 245:6) proves from Shulchan Aruch and others that it is permitted but he still isn't willing to be lenient. Kitzur Shulchan Aruch 152:5 rules like the Chelkat Mechokek. Misgeret Hashulchan 152:10 cited by Otzar Haposkim 22:9:13 is lenient in extenuating circumstances. Nitei Gavriel (Yichud 32:7) writes that in cases of need such as with a doctor, one may be lenient unless the person is comfortable around the woman in an inappropriate sense. Tzitz Eliezer 6:40:12:4-8 is lenient. Gan Naul 8:25 seems to be lenient. He quotes the Shevet Halevi 5:23:7 and Divrei Chachamim 5:11 as permitting, while the Noda Beyehuda E.H. 2:18, Aruch Hashulchan 22:6, and Igrot Moshe E.H. 4:60 are strict
  18. ↑ In general, Igrot Moshe E.H. 2:15 holds that a daughter protects a man from yichud just like his mother, wife, or sister. This is in disagreement with the Pitchei Teshuva 22:2 who holds that these relatives do not protect from yichud with another woman, even though one is permitted to have yichud with that relative alone. Rav Soloveitchik (Nefesh Harav p. 256) agreed with Rav Moshe and applied it to a grandmother as well. Mishnat Yehoshua (Erusin v. 1 p. 73) applies this to dating.
  19. ↑ Knesset Hagedolah (Hagahot Tur E.H. 22:11) writes that a door that's open to the street only permits that room and not the upper or lower floors connected to that room. The Otzar Haposkim 22:9:5 quotes the Apei Zutrei 22:20 and Nichpeh Bkesef who agree. The Otzar Haposkim 22:9:5 quotes the Nidrei Zerizin 2:9 and Bet Shlomo O.C. 48 who write that rooms connected to a room open to the public are still subject to yichud, and only the room that is open to the public itself is permitted. On the other hand, the Ezer Mkodesh seems to be lenient. Dvar Halacha 3:9 quotes this dispute and adds that the Bet Meir is strict but the Maharsham is lenient.
  20. ↑ Rav Schachter (oral communication)
  21. ↑ Dvar Halacha 3:5
  22. ↑ Orchot Habayit 34:31
  23. ↑ Mishnat Yehoshua (Erusin v. 1 p. 62-3) quoting Rav Elyashiv, Teshuvot Vehanhagot 5:331. This approach treats a car like being outside since it is possible to see into the car windows. However, Igrot Moshe 4:65:3 was strict not to allow a man and woman to enter a car together because they could stop in a deserted area. Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach in Minchat Shlomo 1:91:21 and Rav Willig (cited by Rabbi Jachter) are lenient. Rav Schachter is strict but acknowledges that dating in today’s world it isn’t practical to be strict on this
  24. ↑ Rabbi Willig (oral communication) thought that we could be lenient since there is a camera in the room and someone is watching the cameras at all times. He added that it might not be recommended depending on the situation and the people asking. Therefore, it is appropriate to ask a Rav for each case. Rabbi Wiederblank agreed
  25. ↑ Rabbi Neuberger (oral communication), Rav Aryeh Lebowitz (Ten Minute Halacha)
  26. ↑ Beer Yisrael p. 42 citing Igrot Moshe OC 4:118, Chafetz Chaim klal 9
  27. ↑ Beer Yisrael p. 42
  28. ↑ Beer Yisrael p. 43 quoting the Steipler and other gedolim, Igrot Moshe 4:118
  29. ↑ The Gemara Brachot 61a states that it is better to walk behind a lion than a women in the marketplace. Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach in Minchat Shlomo 1:91 writes that today since there are as many women as there are men on the street unlike in the days of chazal it is impossible not to follow a woman in the street. He concludes that for a mitzvah or for etiquette one can be lenient to follow a woman in the street. Rabbi Willig (approx min 30) added that even though it is impossible not to walk behind women but still you need to be careful of what you see. Rav Nissim Karelitz in Chut Shani (Shabbat v. 3 p. 268) writes that nowadays when it is impossible not to walk behind a woman in the streets one should walk quickly so as not to follow a particular woman. The Leket Yosher YD p. 37 writes that it is permitted to follow a religious woman nowadays. Tzitz Eliezer 9:50 explained that today it is permitted to follow a woman in the street since it is so common it doesn't arouse inappropriate thoughts. He quotes Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach as agreeing with him. Yabia Omer OC 6:13:5 seems to agree.
    • However, Gan Naul (Tzeniyut v. 1 3:4) holds that the prohibition still applies today. He quotes Doleh Umashkeh p. 290 who records that Rav Chaim Kanievsky said that it is proper to avoid walking behind a woman today if it is possible. He also cites the Bnei Yakov siman
    21 who quotes Rav Ovadia Yosef as holding that one can be lenient since woman commonly walk the streets.
  30. ↑ The Mahari Barin (cited by Darkei Moshe 695:7) writes that a man shouldn’t give mishloach manot to a woman or vice versa. The Rama O.C. 695:4 codifies this. The language of the Rama implies that the reason is that if they give each other mishloach manot it will look like a kiddushin. However, the Machatzit Hashekel 695:15 explains that there is no concern that these gifts will affect a questionable kiddushin with the woman because there would need to be valid witnesses. Also, we are not concerned that a gift given for another reason is considered kiddushin (Rama E.H. 45:1). Rather the concern is that perhaps someone seeing this interaction will think that they are already married and this is a gift between them. Mishna Brurah 695:26 agrees. See Betzel HaChochma 5:51 for another approach. Aruch Hashulchan 695:18 adds that the primary issue is that when a man gives a gift to a woman it leads to an inappropriate affection and closeness. Shvut Yakov 1:41 and Tzemach Yehuda 3:235:4 agree. Chashukei Chemed Megillah 4a quotes Rav Elyashiv as holding that if there’s no alternative, a man could give mishloach manot to a woman if given in a nonaffectionate manner.
  31. ↑ Rav Schachter (oral communication) explained that it is completely permitted to give dating gifts or the engagement ring and there is no concern for kiddushin.
  32. ↑ Rav Aryeh Lebowitz (Ten Minute Halacha) quotes Rav Sobolofsky and Rav Schachter who thought it is inappropriate for a dating or engaged couple to give each other mishloach manot. Even though there is very little to be concerned with since their intentions are not for kiddushin and the reason of the Aruch Hashulchan doesn’t apply (since it is appropriate for them to give gifts to build the relationship), nonetheless, since the Rama explicitly forbids mishloach manot, we should observe that minhag.
  33. ↑ *The Mahari Barin (cited by Darkei Moshe 695:7) writes that a man shouldn’t give mishloach manot to a woman or the opposite. The Rama OC 695:4 codifies this. The Machasit Hashekel 695:15 explains that the concern that through these gifts the man will affect a questionable kiddushin with the woman isn’t an issue because there would need to be witnesses for it to be a valid kiddushin. Rather the concern is that perhaps someone seeing this interaction will think that they are married and this is a gift between them. Magen Avraham 695:15 and Mishna Brurah 695:26 concur.
    • Aruch Hashulchan 695:18 adds that the real issue is that when a man gives a woman a gift it leads to a closeness which is inappropriate. Tzemech Yehuda 3:235:4 agrees. Chashukei Chemed Megillah 4a quotes Rav Elyashiv as holding that if there’s no other choice a man could give mishloach manot to a woman if given in a manner that wouldn’t cause to closeness.
    Betzel Chochma 5:51 writes that the Rama was only concerned about kiddushin. He adds that one doesn’t have to be concerned about inappropriate interactions since one is doing a mitzvah of mishloach manot. Additionally, nowadays we are lenient to greet a woman (Rama EH 21:4) and as such we can be lenient in this regard as well. However, he advises not relying on that unless one’s intent is completely pure.
  34. ↑ Rav Mordechai Willig (oral communication)
  35. ↑ Rav Schachter (oral communication)
  36. ↑ Rav Mordechai Willig (oral communication)
  37. ↑ Devarim 13:5 and Sotah 14a. Midrash Rabba Tzav 8:1. See “Paying the Shadchan” by Rabbi Avi Zakutinsky
  38. ↑ Shulchan Aruch O.C. 306:6 allows one to arrange a Shidduch on Shabbat, even if it involves discussion of financial matters that would otherwise be a form of forbidden speech on Shabbat. See Kaf Hachaim 306:50
  39. ↑ Igrot Moshe CM 1:49
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