Zimmun: Difference between revisions
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* Rif Brachot 35b holds that someone who ate something besides bread can be counted for a zimmun of ten and not for a zimmun of three. Rambam Brachot 5:8, Rashba Brachot 48a s.v. ulinyan, and Sar Mkusi (Tosfot Brachot 48a s.v. tisha) agree. However, the Ri (Tosfot Brachot 48a s.v. tisha), Rabbenu Yonah 35b s.v. vafilu, and Rosh Brachot 7:21 argue that there’s no distinction between a zimun of three and ten and one person who ate something besides bread can join a zimun of three. | * Rif Brachot 35b holds that someone who ate something besides bread can be counted for a zimmun of ten and not for a zimmun of three. Rambam Brachot 5:8, Rashba Brachot 48a s.v. ulinyan, and Sar Mkusi (Tosfot Brachot 48a s.v. tisha) agree. However, the Ri (Tosfot Brachot 48a s.v. tisha), Rabbenu Yonah 35b s.v. vafilu, and Rosh Brachot 7:21 argue that there’s no distinction between a zimun of three and ten and one person who ate something besides bread can join a zimun of three. | ||
* According to Tosfot unlike Rif and Rambam, what do you need to eat? Tosfot 48a s.v. tisha says that anything including a drink is sufficient. Bet Yosef 197:3 cites the Kol Bo 25 who says that you can only join a zimmun of three if you ate mezonot. | * According to Tosfot unlike Rif and Rambam, what do you need to eat? Tosfot 48a s.v. tisha says that anything including a drink is sufficient. Bet Yosef 197:3 cites the Kol Bo 25 who says that you can only join a zimmun of three if you ate mezonot. | ||
* Shulchan Aruch 197:3 writes that there are three opinions as to whether two who ate bread may join in a zimmun with a third person who didn't eat bread. The first opinion holds that one may not join together for a three person zimmun unless all three people ate bread. The second opinion holds that they may join together as long as the third person ate [[mezonot]]. The last opinion holds that as long as the third person ate anything, they may join together for a zimmun. Shulchan Aruch writes that in order to avoid a dispute one should not allow a third person who doesn't want to eat bread to join with the first two who are eating bread. The Mishna Brurah 197:22, however, writes that the minhag is in accordance with the last opinion allowing a zimmun of three as long as the third person ate something. Halacha Brurah 197:12 also writes that some are lenient. Chacham Ovadia Yosef in Sh"t Yechave Daat 4:13 (in the footnote) quotes the Knesset HaGedola who says that the minhag is to allow a zimmun of three as long as the third person ate something. He explains that the only reason Shulchan Aruch said one should avoid such a zimmun is because in his day people used to listen to the [[birkat hamazon]] of the leader of the zimmun, however, nowadays since everyone says the [[birkat hamazon]] to themselves such a zimmun is allowed. Mishna Brurah 197:20 notes that the third person must eat at least a [[kezayit]] in order to obligate a bracha achrona. Kitzur Shulchan Aruch 45:10, Shulchan Aruch 196:3, and Ben Ish Chai (Korach n. 5) say that ideally the third person joining two others who ate bread for a zimmun should have at least a kazayit of mezonot or wine but it is permissible to join as long as he had a kazayit of any other fruit, vegetable, or drink besides water. </ref> | * Shulchan Aruch O.C. 197:3 writes that there are three opinions as to whether two who ate bread may join in a zimmun with a third person who didn't eat bread. The first opinion holds that one may not join together for a three person zimmun unless all three people ate bread. The second opinion holds that they may join together as long as the third person ate [[mezonot]]. The last opinion holds that as long as the third person ate anything, they may join together for a zimmun. Shulchan Aruch writes that in order to avoid a dispute one should not allow a third person who doesn't want to eat bread to join with the first two who are eating bread. The Mishna Brurah 197:22, however, writes that the minhag is in accordance with the last opinion allowing a zimmun of three as long as the third person ate something. Halacha Brurah 197:12 also writes that some are lenient. Chacham Ovadia Yosef in Sh"t Yechave Daat 4:13 (in the footnote) quotes the Knesset HaGedola who says that the minhag is to allow a zimmun of three as long as the third person ate something. He explains that the only reason Shulchan Aruch said one should avoid such a zimmun is because in his day people used to listen to the [[birkat hamazon]] of the leader of the zimmun, however, nowadays since everyone says the [[birkat hamazon]] to themselves such a zimmun is allowed. Mishna Brurah 197:20 notes that the third person must eat at least a [[kezayit]] in order to obligate a bracha achrona. Kitzur Shulchan Aruch 45:10, Shulchan Aruch 196:3, and Ben Ish Chai (Korach n. 5) say that ideally the third person joining two others who ate bread for a zimmun should have at least a kazayit of mezonot or wine but it is permissible to join as long as he had a kazayit of any other fruit, vegetable, or drink besides water. [https://itorah.com/global-search/zimun%20bread Rabbi Mansour] discussed this topic on several occasions. One time ("Can Three People Make a Zimun if One of Them Did Not Eat Bread?" on 11/24/11) he followed the Shulchan Aruch and Rav Moshe Halevi. However, in two later discussions ("What Must the Third Person Eat for Three People to Make a Zimun?" on 5/19/13 and "Must All Three People Have Eaten Bread in Order to Recite a Zimun?" on 7/9/19) he followed Rav Ovadia Yosef.</ref> | ||
# If two people eat bread together and a third person ate a [[kezayit]] of another food, if one of those who ate bread said [[Birkat HaMazon]] without Zimmun, many poskim hold that there is no obligation of Zimmun.<ref>Beiur Halacha 194:1 s.v. Echad cites the Eliyah Rabba who has a safek about this and concludes that there is no obligation for Zimmin. He quotes the Maamar Mordechai, Birkei Yosef, and Magen Giborim as agreeing. Sefer Keysad Mezamnin (9:22, p. 123) concurs.</ref> | # If two people eat bread together and a third person ate a [[kezayit]] of another food, if one of those who ate bread said [[Birkat HaMazon]] without Zimmun, many poskim hold that there is no obligation of Zimmun.<ref>Beiur Halacha 194:1 s.v. Echad cites the Eliyah Rabba who has a safek about this and concludes that there is no obligation for Zimmin. He quotes the Maamar Mordechai, Birkei Yosef, and Magen Giborim as agreeing. Sefer Keysad Mezamnin (9:22, p. 123) concurs.</ref> | ||
# If two people eat bread together and a third person ate a [[kezayit]] of another food, if the one who ate the other food said a [[Bracha Achrona]] without Zimmun, there is no obligation of Zimmun.<ref>Chaye Adam 48:1 writes that if two people eat bread together and a third person ate a [[kezayit]] of another food, if the one who ate the other food said a [[Bracha Achrona]] without Zimmun, there is no obligation of Zimmun since the one who ate food other than bread had a non-permanent meal to begin with and has already made a bracha achrona. Sefer Keysad Mezamnin (9:20, p. 122) concurs.</ref> | # If two people eat bread together and a third person ate a [[kezayit]] of another food, if the one who ate the other food said a [[Bracha Achrona]] without Zimmun, there is no obligation of Zimmun.<ref>Chaye Adam 48:1 writes that if two people eat bread together and a third person ate a [[kezayit]] of another food, if the one who ate the other food said a [[Bracha Achrona]] without Zimmun, there is no obligation of Zimmun since the one who ate food other than bread had a non-permanent meal to begin with and has already made a bracha achrona. Sefer Keysad Mezamnin (9:20, p. 122) concurs.</ref> | ||
