Zimmun: Difference between revisions
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==Who Should be Given the Honor of Zimmun?== | ==Who Should be Given the Honor of Zimmun?== | ||
# If there are guests, the homeowner should honor one of the guests with zimmun and he can even choose one of them who isn't the greatest talmid chacham.<ref>Shulchan Aruch 201:1, Mishna Brurah 201:4</ref> | # If there are guests, the homeowner should honor one of the guests with zimmun and he can even choose one of them who isn't the greatest talmid chacham.<ref>Shulchan Aruch O.C. 201:1, Mishna Brurah 201:4. Sefer Vkidashto (p. 173) writes that a host can honor whichever guest he likes even a non-kohen over a kohen. His proofs are Shulchan Aruch Harav 167, Biur Halacha 201, Minchat Elazar 4:49, and Mishna Halachot 3:28.</ref> | ||
# If there's no guests, a talmid chacham should be given first right to lead zimmun, afterwards a kohen should be given the right. If the kohan isn't a talmid chacham and there's also a talmid chacham there the talmid chacham may not say that he's giving the zimmun to the kohan based on rights of a kohan but he may give him permission to do the zimmun.<ref>Shulchan Aruch 201:2. The Gemara Megillah 28a explains that a talmid chacham who gives the zimmun to the kohan as a right of him being a kohen it is a disgrace to the Torah.</ref> | # If there's no guests, a talmid chacham should be given first right to lead zimmun, afterwards a kohen should be given the right. If the kohan isn't a talmid chacham and there's also a talmid chacham there the talmid chacham may not say that he's giving the zimmun to the kohan based on rights of a kohan but he may give him permission to do the zimmun.<ref>Shulchan Aruch 201:2. The Gemara Megillah 28a explains that a talmid chacham who gives the zimmun to the kohan as a right of him being a kohen it is a disgrace to the Torah.</ref> | ||
# There is no difference for zimmun if the person leading zimmun ate a kezayit of bread and isn't full or whether he's full. Similarly, there's no difference if he ate and drank or just ate. That is only for leading zimmun but not if one person is actually being motzei another person their obligation in Birkat Hamazon.<ref>Mishna Brurah 197:23 writes that even though regarding the obligation of Birchat Hamazon it matters if a person only ate a kezayit or is full or whether they drank, if everyone is fulfilling their own obligation it isn't relevant for zimmun.</ref> | # There is no difference for zimmun if the person leading zimmun ate a kezayit of bread and isn't full or whether he's full. Similarly, there's no difference if he ate and drank or just ate. That is only for leading zimmun but not if one person is actually being motzei another person their obligation in Birkat Hamazon.<ref>Mishna Brurah 197:23 writes that even though regarding the obligation of Birchat Hamazon it matters if a person only ate a kezayit or is full or whether they drank, if everyone is fulfilling their own obligation it isn't relevant for zimmun.</ref> | ||
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* Rif Brachot 35b holds that someone who ate something besides bread can be counted for a zimmun of ten and not for a zimmun of three. Rambam Brachot 5:8, Rashba Brachot 48a s.v. ulinyan, and Sar Mkusi (Tosfot Brachot 48a s.v. tisha) agree. However, the Ri (Tosfot Brachot 48a s.v. tisha), Rabbenu Yonah 35b s.v. vafilu, and Rosh Brachot 7:21 argue that there’s no distinction between a zimun of three and ten and one person who ate something besides bread can join a zimun of three. | * Rif Brachot 35b holds that someone who ate something besides bread can be counted for a zimmun of ten and not for a zimmun of three. Rambam Brachot 5:8, Rashba Brachot 48a s.v. ulinyan, and Sar Mkusi (Tosfot Brachot 48a s.v. tisha) agree. However, the Ri (Tosfot Brachot 48a s.v. tisha), Rabbenu Yonah 35b s.v. vafilu, and Rosh Brachot 7:21 argue that there’s no distinction between a zimun of three and ten and one person who ate something besides bread can join a zimun of three. | ||
* According to Tosfot unlike Rif and Rambam, what do you need to eat? Tosfot 48a s.v. tisha says that anything including a drink is sufficient. Bet Yosef 197:3 cites the Kol Bo 25 who says that you can only join a zimmun of three if you ate mezonot. | * According to Tosfot unlike Rif and Rambam, what do you need to eat? Tosfot 48a s.v. tisha says that anything including a drink is sufficient. Bet Yosef 197:3 cites the Kol Bo 25 who says that you can only join a zimmun of three if you ate mezonot. | ||
* Shulchan Aruch 197:3 writes that there are three opinions as to whether two who ate bread may join in a zimmun with a third person who didn't eat bread. The first opinion holds that one may not join together for a three person zimmun unless all three people ate bread. The second opinion holds that they may join together as long as the third person ate [[mezonot]]. The last opinion holds that as long as the third person ate anything, they may join together for a zimmun. Shulchan Aruch writes that in order to avoid a dispute one should not allow a third person who doesn't want to eat bread to join with the first two who are eating bread. The Mishna Brurah 197:22, however, writes that the minhag is in accordance with the last opinion allowing a zimmun of three as long as the third person ate something. Halacha Brurah 197:12 also writes that some are lenient. Chacham Ovadia Yosef in Sh"t Yechave Daat 4:13 (in the footnote) quotes the Knesset HaGedola who says that the minhag is to allow a zimmun of three as long as the third person ate something. He explains that the only reason Shulchan Aruch said one should avoid such a zimmun is because in his day people used to listen to the [[birkat hamazon]] of the leader of the zimmun, however, nowadays since everyone says the [[birkat hamazon]] to themselves such a zimmun is allowed. Mishna Brurah 197:20 notes that the third person must eat at least a [[kezayit]] in order to obligate a bracha achrona. Kitzur Shulchan Aruch 45:10, Shulchan Aruch 196:3, and Ben Ish Chai (Korach n. 5) say that ideally the third person joining two others who ate bread for a zimmun should have at least a kazayit of mezonot or wine but it is permissible to join as long as he had a kazayit of any other fruit, vegetable, or drink besides water. </ref> | * Shulchan Aruch O.C. 197:3 writes that there are three opinions as to whether two who ate bread may join in a zimmun with a third person who didn't eat bread. The first opinion holds that one may not join together for a three person zimmun unless all three people ate bread. The second opinion holds that they may join together as long as the third person ate [[mezonot]]. The last opinion holds that as long as the third person ate anything, they may join together for a zimmun. Shulchan Aruch writes that in order to avoid a dispute one should not allow a third person who doesn't want to eat bread to join with the first two who are eating bread. The Mishna Brurah 197:22, however, writes that the minhag is in accordance with the last opinion allowing a zimmun of three as long as the third person ate something. Halacha Brurah 197:12 also writes that some are lenient. Chacham Ovadia Yosef in Sh"t Yechave Daat 4:13 (in the footnote) quotes the Knesset HaGedola who says that the minhag is to allow a zimmun of three as long as the third person ate something. He explains that the only reason Shulchan Aruch said one should avoid such a zimmun is because in his day people used to listen to the [[birkat hamazon]] of the leader of the zimmun, however, nowadays since everyone says the [[birkat hamazon]] to themselves such a zimmun is allowed. Mishna Brurah 197:20 notes that the third person must eat at least a [[kezayit]] in order to obligate a bracha achrona. Kitzur Shulchan Aruch 45:10, Shulchan Aruch 196:3, and Ben Ish Chai (Korach n. 5) say that ideally the third person joining two others who ate bread for a zimmun should have at least a kazayit of mezonot or wine but it is permissible to join as long as he had a kazayit of any other fruit, vegetable, or drink besides water. [https://itorah.com/global-search/zimun%20bread Rabbi Mansour] discussed this topic on several occasions. One time ("Can Three People Make a Zimun if One of Them Did Not Eat Bread?" on 11/24/11) he followed the Shulchan Aruch and Rav Moshe Halevi. However, in two later discussions ("What Must the Third Person Eat for Three People to Make a Zimun?" on 5/19/13 and "Must All Three People Have Eaten Bread in Order to Recite a Zimun?" on 7/9/19) he followed Rav Ovadia Yosef.</ref> | ||
# If two people eat bread together and a third person ate a [[kezayit]] of another food, if one of those who ate bread said [[Birkat HaMazon]] without Zimmun, many poskim hold that there is no obligation of Zimmun.<ref>Beiur Halacha 194:1 s.v. Echad cites the Eliyah Rabba who has a safek about this and concludes that there is no obligation for Zimmin. He quotes the Maamar Mordechai, Birkei Yosef, and Magen Giborim as agreeing. Sefer Keysad Mezamnin (9:22, p. 123) concurs.</ref> | # If two people eat bread together and a third person ate a [[kezayit]] of another food, if one of those who ate bread said [[Birkat HaMazon]] without Zimmun, many poskim hold that there is no obligation of Zimmun.<ref>Beiur Halacha 194:1 s.v. Echad cites the Eliyah Rabba who has a safek about this and concludes that there is no obligation for Zimmin. He quotes the Maamar Mordechai, Birkei Yosef, and Magen Giborim as agreeing. Sefer Keysad Mezamnin (9:22, p. 123) concurs.</ref> | ||
# If two people eat bread together and a third person ate a [[kezayit]] of another food, if the one who ate the other food said a [[Bracha Achrona]] without Zimmun, there is no obligation of Zimmun.<ref>Chaye Adam 48:1 writes that if two people eat bread together and a third person ate a [[kezayit]] of another food, if the one who ate the other food said a [[Bracha Achrona]] without Zimmun, there is no obligation of Zimmun since the one who ate food other than bread had a non-permanent meal to begin with and has already made a bracha achrona. Sefer Keysad Mezamnin (9:20, p. 122) concurs.</ref> | # If two people eat bread together and a third person ate a [[kezayit]] of another food, if the one who ate the other food said a [[Bracha Achrona]] without Zimmun, there is no obligation of Zimmun.<ref>Chaye Adam 48:1 writes that if two people eat bread together and a third person ate a [[kezayit]] of another food, if the one who ate the other food said a [[Bracha Achrona]] without Zimmun, there is no obligation of Zimmun since the one who ate food other than bread had a non-permanent meal to begin with and has already made a bracha achrona. Sefer Keysad Mezamnin (9:20, p. 122) concurs.</ref> | ||
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==Who can join a Zimmun== | ==Who can join a Zimmun== | ||
===Women=== | ===Women=== | ||
# Women who ate with a group of men who became obligated to make a zimmun are obligated to join in their zimmun. <ref>Kitzur Shulchan Aruch 45:22</ref> | # Women who ate with a group of men who became obligated to make a zimmun are obligated to join in their zimmun.<ref>Shulchan Aruch O.C. 199:6, Kitzur Shulchan Aruch 45:22</ref> | ||
# Women who ate together | # Women who ate together can optionally make a zimmun for themselves. The zimmun for women doesn't change whether it is three or ten or more women; either way they do not mention Hashem's name, ''Elokenu'', in the zimmun.<ref>Shulchan Aruch O.C. 199:7</ref> | ||
===Children=== | ===Children=== | ||
