Zimmun: Difference between revisions
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* Rif Brachot 35b holds that someone who ate something besides bread can be counted for a zimmun of ten and not for a zimmun of three. Rambam Brachot 5:8, Rashba Brachot 48a s.v. ulinyan, and Sar Mkusi (Tosfot Brachot 48a s.v. tisha) agree. However, the Ri (Tosfot Brachot 48a s.v. tisha), Rabbenu Yonah 35b s.v. vafilu, and Rosh Brachot 7:21 argue that there’s no distinction between a zimun of three and ten and one person who ate something besides bread can join a zimun of three. | * Rif Brachot 35b holds that someone who ate something besides bread can be counted for a zimmun of ten and not for a zimmun of three. Rambam Brachot 5:8, Rashba Brachot 48a s.v. ulinyan, and Sar Mkusi (Tosfot Brachot 48a s.v. tisha) agree. However, the Ri (Tosfot Brachot 48a s.v. tisha), Rabbenu Yonah 35b s.v. vafilu, and Rosh Brachot 7:21 argue that there’s no distinction between a zimun of three and ten and one person who ate something besides bread can join a zimun of three. | ||
* According to Tosfot unlike Rif and Rambam, what do you need to eat? Tosfot 48a s.v. tisha says that anything including a drink is sufficient. Bet Yosef 197:3 cites the Kol Bo 25 who says that you can only join a zimmun of three if you ate mezonot. | * According to Tosfot unlike Rif and Rambam, what do you need to eat? Tosfot 48a s.v. tisha says that anything including a drink is sufficient. Bet Yosef 197:3 cites the Kol Bo 25 who says that you can only join a zimmun of three if you ate mezonot. | ||
* Shulchan Aruch 197:3 writes that there are three opinions as to whether two who ate bread may join in a zimmun with a third person who didn't eat bread. The first opinion holds that one may not join together for a three person zimmun unless all three people ate bread. The second opinion holds that they may join together as long as the third person ate [[mezonot]]. The last opinion holds that as long as the third person ate anything, they may join together for a zimmun. Shulchan Aruch writes that in order to avoid a dispute one should not allow a third person who doesn't want to eat bread to join with the first two who are eating bread. The Mishna Brurah 197:22, however, writes that the minhag is in accordance with the last opinion allowing a zimmun of three as long as the third person ate something. Halacha Brurah 197:12 also writes that some are lenient. Chacham Ovadia Yosef in Sh"t Yechave Daat 4:13 (in the footnote) quotes the Knesset HaGedola who says that the minhag is to allow a zimmun of three as long as the third person ate something. He explains that the only reason Shulchan Aruch said one should avoid such a zimmun is because in his day people used to listen to the [[birkat hamazon]] of the leader of the zimmun, however, nowadays since everyone says the [[birkat hamazon]] to themselves such a zimmun is allowed. Mishna Brurah 197:20 notes that the third person must eat at least a [[kezayit]] in order to obligate a bracha achrona. Kitzur Shulchan Aruch 45:10, Shulchan Aruch 196:3, and Ben Ish Chai (Korach n. 5) say that ideally the third person joining two others who ate bread for a zimmun should have at least a kazayit of mezonot or wine but it is permissible to join as long as he had a kazayit of any other fruit, vegetable, or drink besides water. </ref> | * Shulchan Aruch O.C. 197:3 writes that there are three opinions as to whether two who ate bread may join in a zimmun with a third person who didn't eat bread. The first opinion holds that one may not join together for a three person zimmun unless all three people ate bread. The second opinion holds that they may join together as long as the third person ate [[mezonot]]. The last opinion holds that as long as the third person ate anything, they may join together for a zimmun. Shulchan Aruch writes that in order to avoid a dispute one should not allow a third person who doesn't want to eat bread to join with the first two who are eating bread. The Mishna Brurah 197:22, however, writes that the minhag is in accordance with the last opinion allowing a zimmun of three as long as the third person ate something. Halacha Brurah 197:12 also writes that some are lenient. Chacham Ovadia Yosef in Sh"t Yechave Daat 4:13 (in the footnote) quotes the Knesset HaGedola who says that the minhag is to allow a zimmun of three as long as the third person ate something. He explains that the only reason Shulchan Aruch said one should avoid such a zimmun is because in his day people used to listen to the [[birkat hamazon]] of the leader of the zimmun, however, nowadays since everyone says the [[birkat hamazon]] to themselves such a zimmun is allowed. Mishna Brurah 197:20 notes that the third person must eat at least a [[kezayit]] in order to obligate a bracha achrona. Kitzur Shulchan Aruch 45:10, Shulchan Aruch 196:3, and Ben Ish Chai (Korach n. 5) say that ideally the third person joining two others who ate bread for a zimmun should have at least a kazayit of mezonot or wine but it is permissible to join as long as he had a kazayit of any other fruit, vegetable, or drink besides water. [https://itorah.com/global-search/zimun%20bread Rabbi Mansour] discussed this topic on several occasions. One time ("Can Three People Make a Zimun if One of Them Did Not Eat Bread?" on 11/24/11) he followed the Shulchan Aruch and Rav Moshe Halevi. However, in two later discussions ("What Must the Third Person Eat for Three People to Make a Zimun?" on 5/19/13 and "Must All Three People Have Eaten Bread in Order to Recite a Zimun?" on 7/9/19) he followed Rav Ovadia Yosef.</ref> | ||
# If two people eat bread together and a third person ate a [[kezayit]] of another food, if one of those who ate bread said [[Birkat HaMazon]] without Zimmun, many poskim hold that there is no obligation of Zimmun.<ref>Beiur Halacha 194:1 s.v. Echad cites the Eliyah Rabba who has a safek about this and concludes that there is no obligation for Zimmin. He quotes the Maamar Mordechai, Birkei Yosef, and Magen Giborim as agreeing. Sefer Keysad Mezamnin (9:22, p. 123) concurs.</ref> | # If two people eat bread together and a third person ate a [[kezayit]] of another food, if one of those who ate bread said [[Birkat HaMazon]] without Zimmun, many poskim hold that there is no obligation of Zimmun.<ref>Beiur Halacha 194:1 s.v. Echad cites the Eliyah Rabba who has a safek about this and concludes that there is no obligation for Zimmin. He quotes the Maamar Mordechai, Birkei Yosef, and Magen Giborim as agreeing. Sefer Keysad Mezamnin (9:22, p. 123) concurs.</ref> | ||
# If two people eat bread together and a third person ate a [[kezayit]] of another food, if the one who ate the other food said a [[Bracha Achrona]] without Zimmun, there is no obligation of Zimmun.<ref>Chaye Adam 48:1 writes that if two people eat bread together and a third person ate a [[kezayit]] of another food, if the one who ate the other food said a [[Bracha Achrona]] without Zimmun, there is no obligation of Zimmun since the one who ate food other than bread had a non-permanent meal to begin with and has already made a bracha achrona. Sefer Keysad Mezamnin (9:20, p. 122) concurs.</ref> | # If two people eat bread together and a third person ate a [[kezayit]] of another food, if the one who ate the other food said a [[Bracha Achrona]] without Zimmun, there is no obligation of Zimmun.<ref>Chaye Adam 48:1 writes that if two people eat bread together and a third person ate a [[kezayit]] of another food, if the one who ate the other food said a [[Bracha Achrona]] without Zimmun, there is no obligation of Zimmun since the one who ate food other than bread had a non-permanent meal to begin with and has already made a bracha achrona. Sefer Keysad Mezamnin (9:20, p. 122) concurs.</ref> | ||
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==Who can join a Zimmun== | ==Who can join a Zimmun== | ||
===Women=== | ===Women=== | ||
# Women who ate with a group of men who became obligated to make a zimmun are obligated to join in their zimmun. <ref>Kitzur Shulchan Aruch 45:22</ref> | # Women who ate with a group of men who became obligated to make a zimmun are obligated to join in their zimmun.<ref>Shulchan Aruch O.C. 199:6, Kitzur Shulchan Aruch 45:22</ref> | ||
# Women who ate together | # Women who ate together can optionally make a zimmun for themselves. The zimmun for women doesn't change whether it is three or ten or more women; either way they do not mention Hashem's name, ''Elokenu'', in the zimmun.<ref>Shulchan Aruch O.C. 199:7</ref> | ||
===Children=== | ===Children=== | ||
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# Contemporary Poskim agree that this does not extend including one Kattan regardless of the size of zimmun.<ref>Rav Yosef Karo (Beit Yosef 199:10) quotes the Kol Bo (Siman 25) that there must always be a Rov Nikar of Gedolim, so a regular zimmun can have a maximum of one Kattan and a zimmun of ten can have up to three. | # Contemporary Poskim agree that this does not extend including one Kattan regardless of the size of zimmun.<ref>Rav Yosef Karo (Beit Yosef 199:10) quotes the Kol Bo (Siman 25) that there must always be a Rov Nikar of Gedolim, so a regular zimmun can have a maximum of one Kattan and a zimmun of ten can have up to three. | ||
* The Mishnah Brurah 199:25 quotes the Magen Avraham (199:6) quoting the Shiltei HaGibborim (Berachot 35 1:5) that only one Kattan may be counted. In the Shaar HaTziun (199:14) he says the Magen Avraham and Birkei Yosef both say this bedaat Maran. Upon reading the Birkei Yosef (199:3), it's clear that the Chidah felt Maran actually holds like the Kol Bo, who allows one to use many Ketanim as long as there's a Rov Nikar of Gedolim. Rather, the Birkei Yosef was being Machmir for the Riaz, because many poskim sound that way. This really isn't a Shaylah for Ashkenazim. | * The Mishnah Brurah 199:25 quotes the Magen Avraham (199:6) quoting the Shiltei HaGibborim (Berachot 35 1:5) that only one Kattan may be counted. In the Shaar HaTziun (199:14) he says the Magen Avraham and Birkei Yosef both say this bedaat Maran. Upon reading the Birkei Yosef (199:3), it's clear that the Chidah felt Maran actually holds like the Kol Bo, who allows one to use many Ketanim as long as there's a Rov Nikar of Gedolim. Rather, the Birkei Yosef was being Machmir for the Riaz, because many poskim sound that way. This really isn't a Shaylah for Ashkenazim. | ||
* The Kaf HaChaim (199:30), Birkat Hashem (vol. 2 ch. 6:25), Halacha Berurah (199:13), Yalkut Yosef 199:4 (199:6 in Kitzur Shulchan Aruch), and Piskei Teshuvot (199:5) all hold say one may only use one Kattan regardless. The Birkat Hashem quotes many | * The Kaf HaChaim (199:30), Birkat Hashem (vol. 2 ch. 6:25), Halacha Berurah (199:13), Yalkut Yosef 199:4 (199:6 in Kitzur Shulchan Aruch), and Piskei Teshuvot (199:5) all hold say one may only use one Kattan regardless. The Birkat Hashem quotes many Sephardi Poskim, such as the Birkei Yosef, Erech HaShulchan (199:2), Kaf HaChaim ibid, Siddur Beit Menuchah, Chessed LeAlaphim, and Yechaved Daat 4:13.</ref> | ||
#If a | #If a Sephardi, Ashkenazi, and Kattan (Sephardi) eat bread together, they may make a zimmun if the Sephardi leads. If they're ten total, consisting of eight Sephardim, and Ashkenazi, and a Kattan, they Sephardim may make a zimmun baShem, but the Ashkenazim should answer quietly without Hashem's name in a way that no one will notice the omission.<ref>VeZot HaBeracha (pg. 132) quotes the ruling of R' Chaim Pinchas Sheinberg and Rav Mordechai Eliyahu that if a Sephardi, Ashkenazi, and Kattan eat together, they may make a zimmun and the Sephardi should be Mezamen. Moreover, Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach holds that if they're eight Sephardim, an Askenazi, and a Kattan, one of the Sephardim should make a zimmun BaShem, but the Ashkenazi should answer quietly without the Shem. This is also the ruling of the Piskei Teshuvot (199:5) and it's quoted in Yalkut Yosef (Heb-Eng) there.</ref> | ||
#Three Ketanim who eat together may not make their own zimmun<ref>The Perishah had a Girsa in the Tur that ketanim could make their own zimmun, but the Kaf HaChaim (199:18) points out from Maamar Mordechai (199:2) and Yafeh LeLev (199:2) that the Turim printed from the times of Maran and the Bach did not have that Girsa. Neither did the Rambam or Shulchan Aruch themselves. Rav David Yosef (Halacha Berurah 199:14) says that three ketanim who eat together should not make their own zimmun.</ref> | #Three Ketanim who eat together may not make their own zimmun<ref>The Perishah had a Girsa in the Tur that ketanim could make their own zimmun, but the Kaf HaChaim (199:18) points out from Maamar Mordechai (199:2) and Yafeh LeLev (199:2) that the Turim printed from the times of Maran and the Bach did not have that Girsa. Neither did the Rambam or Shulchan Aruch themselves. Rav David Yosef (Halacha Berurah 199:14) says that three ketanim who eat together should not make their own zimmun.</ref> | ||
# Ashkenazi Ketanim should still answer to a zimmun that they hear according to how much they ate with those bentching.<ref>The Piskei Teshuvot (199:5) says that they should answer as appropriate to other people's zimmun based on [[Chinuch]] if they ate together with those making a zimmun.</ref> | # Ashkenazi Ketanim should still answer to a zimmun that they hear according to how much they ate with those bentching.<ref>The Piskei Teshuvot (199:5) says that they should answer as appropriate to other people's zimmun based on [[Chinuch]] if they ate together with those making a zimmun.</ref> | ||
