Zimmun: Difference between revisions
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==Shir HaMaalot== | ==Shir HaMaalot== | ||
# One should say [[Al Neharot Bavel]] before [[benching]] after a meal and on days when there’s no [[tachanun]] one should say [[Shir HaMaalot]] BeShuv Hashem instead. The minhag is to say [[Shir HaMaalot]] at Seudot mitzvah as well. < | # One should say [[Al Neharot Bavel]] before [[benching]] after a meal and on days when there’s no [[tachanun]] one should say [[Shir HaMaalot]] BeShuv Hashem instead.<Ref>Magen Avraham 1:5, Kitzur Shulchan Aruch 42:5, Mishna Brurah 1:10,11</ref> The minhag is to say [[Shir HaMaalot]] at Seudot mitzvah as well.<ref>Byitzchak Yikareh of Rav Nevinsal 1:5, Piskei Teshuvot 181:14 in footnote 60. Piskei Teshuvot cites this minhag based on Hitorerut Teshuva 1:88 and others. See also [http://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/744860/Rabbi_Aryeh_Lebowitz/Ten_Minute_Halacha_-_Al_Naharos_Bavel_and_Shir_Hama'alos Rabbi Aryeh Lebowitz on the Ten Minute Halacha].</ref> | ||
==Obligation of Zimmun== | ==Obligation of Zimmun== | ||
# If three people eat together are obligated to make a Zimmun before [[benching]] (making [[Birkat HaMazon]]). <ref> S”A 192:1 </ref> Chazal based it on the pasuk “גדלו לה" אתי ונרוממה | # If three people eat together are obligated to make a Zimmun before [[benching]] (making [[Birkat HaMazon]]). <ref> S”A 192:1 </ref> Chazal based it on the pasuk “גדלו לה" אתי ונרוממה שמו יחדיו” <ref> Tehilim 34 </ref> and “כי שם ה" אקרא הבו גודל לאלוקונו” <ref> Devarim 30. Gemara [[Brachot]] 45 quoted by the Mishna Brurah 192:1. </ref>. | ||
# Most authorities consider Zimmun to be a rabbinic obligation. <ref> Pri Megadim (A”A 197:2) writes that most authorities consider zimmun to be of rabbinic obligation. Chaye Adam 48:1 writes that Zimmun is derabbanan and some say it’s Deoritta. Chazon Ish (31:1) argues that Zimmun should be Deoritta. </ref> | # Most authorities consider Zimmun to be a rabbinic obligation. <ref> Pri Megadim (A”A 197:2) writes that most authorities consider zimmun to be of rabbinic obligation. Chaye Adam 48:1 writes that Zimmun is derabbanan and some say it’s Deoritta. Chazon Ish (31:1) argues that Zimmun should be Deoritta. </ref> | ||
# Zimmun could be said in any language as the purpose is to introduce the [[benching]] orally and join the group together to praise Hashem. <ref> Zohar (Balak pg 186b) writes that it’s important to precede [[benching]] with “give us a cup to bench” in Hebrew or Aramaic to introduce the [[benching]] to bring the [[kedusha]]. Mishna Brurah 192:2 quotes this and writes the minhag ashkenaz was to say Zimmun in Yiddish “Rabbotei Mir Velin Benchin”. Kol Bo (Siman 25) emphasizes the group merit of the zimmun. </ref> | # Zimmun could be said in any language as the purpose is to introduce the [[benching]] orally and join the group together to praise Hashem. <ref> Zohar (Balak pg 186b) writes that it’s important to precede [[benching]] with “give us a cup to bench” in Hebrew or Aramaic to introduce the [[benching]] to bring the [[kedusha]]. Mishna Brurah 192:2 quotes this and writes the minhag ashkenaz was to say Zimmun in Yiddish “Rabbotei Mir Velin Benchin”. Kol Bo (Siman 25) emphasizes the group merit of the zimmun. </ref> | ||
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== Who has the obligation?== | == Who has the obligation?== | ||
# There is only an obligation to have a zimmun if three or more people eat together. The three conditions to be considered “together” is that those who are eating 1) eat while seated, 2) sit at one table, and 3) start or end the meal together. <ref> Shulchan Aruch 193:2 writes that a third person can join two that already started eating if he is “Koveh” (establishes his place) with them. Mishna Brurah 193:21 writes that if one doesn’t eat while sitting and eat at the same table one isn’t considered as being Koveh with the others. Magen Avraham 195:2 and Mishna Brurah 197:3 also include the requirement of sitting at the same table. </ref> They are considered starting together if they all start to eat the first kezayit of bread while the others are still eating that first kezayit.<ref>Tosfot Brachot 45a s.v. shelosha, Vezot Habracha p. 131 citing Rav Elyashiv and Rav Tzvi Weber. He also quotes Rav Sheinberg who said that if they went to wash at the same time it is like they started together.</ref> | # There is only an obligation to have a zimmun if three or more people eat together. The three conditions to be considered “together” is that those who are eating 1) eat while seated, 2) sit at one table, and 3) start or end the meal together. <ref> Shulchan Aruch 193:2 writes that a third person can join two that already started eating if he is “Koveh” (establishes his place) with them. Mishna Brurah 193:21 writes that if one doesn’t eat while sitting and eat at the same table one isn’t considered as being Koveh with the others. Magen Avraham 195:2 and Mishna Brurah 197:3 also include the requirement of sitting at the same table. </ref> They are considered starting together if they all start to eat the first kezayit of bread while the others are still eating that first kezayit.<ref>Tosfot Brachot 45a s.v. shelosha, Vezot Habracha p. 131 citing Rav Elyashiv and Rav Tzvi Weber. He also quotes Rav Sheinberg who said that if they went to wash at the same time it is like they started together.</ref> | ||
##A person eating with his family is considered one eating together to be obligated in zimmun even if they aren't eating at the same table.<ref>Mishna Brurah 193:18</ref> | |||
##People eating together at a simcha or any other occasion are considered eating together even if they aren't eating at the same table.<ref>Piskei Teshuvot 193:7</ref> | |||
## If in a school or yeshiva, the students go to lunch at the same time, the group can make Zimmun together even if they sit at separate tables as long as they can see from one table to another. Even if they don’t have enough at each table to make their own Zimmun of ten, they can join together to make a Zimmun of ten. However, it’s preferable that they one time actual say verbally that they intend to eat together. <ref> Yalkut Yosef (vol 3 pg 375), Piskei Teshuvot 193:7 </ref> | |||
===Zimmun When They Didn't Establish Together=== | ===Zimmun When They Didn't Establish Together=== | ||
# If two groups ate in different places in the same house and they could see from one group to another, if they have intent (when they began the meal) to join for Zimmun they may join, however, if if they didn’t have intent, then according to Sephardim they may not join for Zimmun, but according to Ashkenazim it’s a dispute whether they may join for zimmun. <Ref>Shulchan Aruch OC 195:1, Mishna Brurah 195:6 </ref> | # If two groups ate in different places in the same house and they could see from one group to another, if they have intent (when they began the meal) to join for Zimmun they may join, however, if if they didn’t have intent, then according to Sephardim they may not join for Zimmun, but according to Ashkenazim it’s a dispute whether they may join for zimmun. <Ref>Shulchan Aruch OC 195:1, Mishna Brurah 195:6 </ref> | ||
# If three people aren’t obligated to make Zimmun as they didn’t join their meals together sitting, on the same table, and starting or finishing together they may not have a zimmun.<ref> Rama 193:3 writes that even if three people aren’t obligated in Zimmun it’s preferable that they make Zimmun because of Berov Am Hadrat Melech, that it’s preferable to honor Hashem in multitudes. Mishna Brurah 193:23 writes that the same would apply if there are more than 3 people. However, Magen Avraham in name of many poskim that since one can’t fulfill the [[Birkat HaMazon]] for another person one is also not allowed to make a zimmun together. Mishna Brurah 193:24 concludes that the Magen Avraham is more logical. Vezot Habracha p. 134 concurs.</ref> Some say that if they sat together but they just started and ended at different times they that they can have a zimmun together.<ref>Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach (Minchat Shlomo Brachot 45a cited by Dirshu 193:22)</ref> | # If three people aren’t obligated to make Zimmun as they didn’t join their meals together sitting, on the same table, and starting or finishing together they may not have a zimmun.<ref> Rama 193:3 writes that even if three people aren’t obligated in Zimmun it’s preferable that they make Zimmun because of Berov Am Hadrat Melech, that it’s preferable to honor Hashem in multitudes. Mishna Brurah 193:23 writes that the same would apply if there are more than 3 people. However, Magen Avraham in name of many poskim that since one can’t fulfill the [[Birkat HaMazon]] for another person one is also not allowed to make a zimmun together. Mishna Brurah 193:24 concludes that the Magen Avraham is more logical. Vezot Habracha p. 134 concurs.</ref> Some say that if they sat together but they just started and ended at different times they that they can have a zimmun together.<ref>Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach (Minchat Shlomo Brachot 45a cited by Dirshu 193:22)</ref> | ||
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* Rif Brachot 35b holds that someone who ate something besides bread can be counted for a zimmun of ten and not for a zimmun of three. Rambam Brachot 5:8, Rashba Brachot 48a s.v. ulinyan, and Sar Mkusi (Tosfot Brachot 48a s.v. tisha) agree. However, the Ri (Tosfot Brachot 48a s.v. tisha), Rabbenu Yonah 35b s.v. vafilu, and Rosh Brachot 7:21 argue that there’s no distinction between a zimun of three and ten and one person who ate something besides bread can join a zimun of three. | * Rif Brachot 35b holds that someone who ate something besides bread can be counted for a zimmun of ten and not for a zimmun of three. Rambam Brachot 5:8, Rashba Brachot 48a s.v. ulinyan, and Sar Mkusi (Tosfot Brachot 48a s.v. tisha) agree. However, the Ri (Tosfot Brachot 48a s.v. tisha), Rabbenu Yonah 35b s.v. vafilu, and Rosh Brachot 7:21 argue that there’s no distinction between a zimun of three and ten and one person who ate something besides bread can join a zimun of three. | ||
* According to Tosfot unlike Rif and Rambam, what do you need to eat? Tosfot 48a s.v. tisha says that anything including a drink is sufficient. Bet Yosef 197:3 cites the Kol Bo 25 who says that you can only join a zimmun of three if you ate mezonot. | * According to Tosfot unlike Rif and Rambam, what do you need to eat? Tosfot 48a s.v. tisha says that anything including a drink is sufficient. Bet Yosef 197:3 cites the Kol Bo 25 who says that you can only join a zimmun of three if you ate mezonot. | ||
* Shulchan Aruch 197:3 writes that there are three opinions as to whether two who ate bread may join in a zimmun with a third person who didn't eat bread. The first opinion holds that one may not join together for a three person zimmun unless all three people ate bread. The second opinion holds that they may join together as long as the third person ate [[mezonot]]. The last opinion holds that as long as the third person ate anything, they may join together for a zimmun. Shulchan Aruch writes that in order to avoid a dispute one should not allow a third person who doesn't want to eat bread to join with the first two who are eating bread. The Mishna Brurah 197:22, however, writes that the minhag is in accordance with the last opinion allowing a zimmun of three as long as the third person ate something. Halacha Brurah 197:12 also writes that some are lenient. Chacham Ovadia Yosef in Sh"t Yechave Daat 4:13 (in the footnote) quotes the Knesset HaGedola who says that the minhag is to allow a zimmun of three as long as the third person ate something. He explains that the only reason Shulchan Aruch said one should avoid such a zimmun is because in his day people used to listen to the [[birkat hamazon]] of the leader of the zimmun, however, nowadays since everyone says the [[birkat hamazon]] to themselves such a zimmun is allowed. Mishna Brurah 197:20 notes that the third person must eat at least a [[kezayit]] in order to obligate a bracha achrona. Kitzur Shulchan Aruch 45:10, Shulchan Aruch 196:3, and Ben Ish Chai (Korach n. 5) say that ideally the third person joining two others who ate bread for a zimmun should have at least a kazayit of mezonot or wine but it is permissible to join as long as he had a kazayit of any other fruit, vegetable, or drink besides water. </ref> | * Shulchan Aruch O.C. 197:3 writes that there are three opinions as to whether two who ate bread may join in a zimmun with a third person who didn't eat bread. The first opinion holds that one may not join together for a three person zimmun unless all three people ate bread. The second opinion holds that they may join together as long as the third person ate [[mezonot]]. The last opinion holds that as long as the third person ate anything, they may join together for a zimmun. Shulchan Aruch writes that in order to avoid a dispute one should not allow a third person who doesn't want to eat bread to join with the first two who are eating bread. The Mishna Brurah 197:22, however, writes that the minhag is in accordance with the last opinion allowing a zimmun of three as long as the third person ate something. Halacha Brurah 197:12 also writes that some are lenient. Chacham Ovadia Yosef in Sh"t Yechave Daat 4:13 (in the footnote) quotes the Knesset HaGedola who says that the minhag is to allow a zimmun of three as long as the third person ate something. He explains that the only reason Shulchan Aruch said one should avoid such a zimmun is because in his day people used to listen to the [[birkat hamazon]] of the leader of the zimmun, however, nowadays since everyone says the [[birkat hamazon]] to themselves such a zimmun is allowed. Mishna Brurah 197:20 notes that the third person must eat at least a [[kezayit]] in order to obligate a bracha achrona. Kitzur Shulchan Aruch 45:10, Shulchan Aruch 196:3, and Ben Ish Chai (Korach n. 5) say that ideally the third person joining two others who ate bread for a zimmun should have at least a kazayit of mezonot or wine but it is permissible to join as long as he had a kazayit of any other fruit, vegetable, or drink besides water. [https://itorah.com/global-search/zimun%20bread Rabbi Mansour] discussed this topic on several occasions. One time ("Can Three People Make a Zimun if One of Them Did Not Eat Bread?" on 11/24/11) he followed the Shulchan Aruch and Rav Moshe Halevi. However, in two later discussions ("What Must the Third Person Eat for Three People to Make a Zimun?" on 5/19/13 and "Must All Three People Have Eaten Bread in Order to Recite a Zimun?" on 7/9/19) he followed Rav Ovadia Yosef.</ref> | ||
# If two people eat bread together and a third person ate a [[kezayit]] of another food, if one of those who ate bread said [[Birkat HaMazon]] without Zimmun, many poskim hold that there is no obligation of Zimmun.<ref>Beiur Halacha 194:1 s.v. Echad cites the Eliyah Rabba who has a safek about this and concludes that there is no obligation for Zimmin. He quotes the Maamar Mordechai, Birkei Yosef, and Magen Giborim as agreeing. Sefer Keysad Mezamnin (9:22, p. 123) concurs.</ref> | # If two people eat bread together and a third person ate a [[kezayit]] of another food, if one of those who ate bread said [[Birkat HaMazon]] without Zimmun, many poskim hold that there is no obligation of Zimmun.<ref>Beiur Halacha 194:1 s.v. Echad cites the Eliyah Rabba who has a safek about this and concludes that there is no obligation for Zimmin. He quotes the Maamar Mordechai, Birkei Yosef, and Magen Giborim as agreeing. Sefer Keysad Mezamnin (9:22, p. 123) concurs.</ref> | ||
# If two people eat bread together and a third person ate a [[kezayit]] of another food, if the one who ate the other food said a [[Bracha Achrona]] without Zimmun, there is no obligation of Zimmun.<ref>Chaye Adam 48:1 writes that if two people eat bread together and a third person ate a [[kezayit]] of another food, if the one who ate the other food said a [[Bracha Achrona]] without Zimmun, there is no obligation of Zimmun since the one who ate food other than bread had a non-permanent meal to begin with and has already made a bracha achrona. Sefer Keysad Mezamnin (9:20, p. 122) concurs.</ref> | # If two people eat bread together and a third person ate a [[kezayit]] of another food, if the one who ate the other food said a [[Bracha Achrona]] without Zimmun, there is no obligation of Zimmun.<ref>Chaye Adam 48:1 writes that if two people eat bread together and a third person ate a [[kezayit]] of another food, if the one who ate the other food said a [[Bracha Achrona]] without Zimmun, there is no obligation of Zimmun since the one who ate food other than bread had a non-permanent meal to begin with and has already made a bracha achrona. Sefer Keysad Mezamnin (9:20, p. 122) concurs.</ref> | ||
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==Who can join a Zimmun== | ==Who can join a Zimmun== | ||
===Women=== | ===Women=== | ||
# Women who ate with a group of men who became obligated to make a zimmun are obligated to join in their zimmun. <ref>Kitzur Shulchan Aruch 45:22</ref> | # Women who ate with a group of men who became obligated to make a zimmun are obligated to join in their zimmun.<ref>Shulchan Aruch O.C. 199:6, Kitzur Shulchan Aruch 45:22</ref> | ||
# Women who ate together | # Women who ate together can optionally make a zimmun for themselves. The zimmun for women doesn't change whether it is three or ten or more women; either way they do not mention Hashem's name, ''Elokenu'', in the zimmun.<ref>Shulchan Aruch O.C. 199:7</ref> | ||
===Children=== | ===Children=== | ||
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# Contemporary Poskim agree that this does not extend including one Kattan regardless of the size of zimmun.<ref>Rav Yosef Karo (Beit Yosef 199:10) quotes the Kol Bo (Siman 25) that there must always be a Rov Nikar of Gedolim, so a regular zimmun can have a maximum of one Kattan and a zimmun of ten can have up to three. | # Contemporary Poskim agree that this does not extend including one Kattan regardless of the size of zimmun.<ref>Rav Yosef Karo (Beit Yosef 199:10) quotes the Kol Bo (Siman 25) that there must always be a Rov Nikar of Gedolim, so a regular zimmun can have a maximum of one Kattan and a zimmun of ten can have up to three. | ||
* The Mishnah Brurah 199:25 quotes the Magen Avraham (199:6) quoting the Shiltei HaGibborim (Berachot 35 1:5) that only one Kattan may be counted. In the Shaar HaTziun (199:14) he says the Magen Avraham and Birkei Yosef both say this bedaat Maran. Upon reading the Birkei Yosef (199:3), it's clear that the Chidah felt Maran actually holds like the Kol Bo, who allows one to use many Ketanim as long as there's a Rov Nikar of Gedolim. Rather, the Birkei Yosef was being Machmir for the Riaz, because many poskim sound that way. This really isn't a Shaylah for Ashkenazim. | * The Mishnah Brurah 199:25 quotes the Magen Avraham (199:6) quoting the Shiltei HaGibborim (Berachot 35 1:5) that only one Kattan may be counted. In the Shaar HaTziun (199:14) he says the Magen Avraham and Birkei Yosef both say this bedaat Maran. Upon reading the Birkei Yosef (199:3), it's clear that the Chidah felt Maran actually holds like the Kol Bo, who allows one to use many Ketanim as long as there's a Rov Nikar of Gedolim. Rather, the Birkei Yosef was being Machmir for the Riaz, because many poskim sound that way. This really isn't a Shaylah for Ashkenazim. | ||
* The Kaf HaChaim (199:30), Birkat Hashem (vol. 2 ch. 6:25), Halacha Berurah (199:13), Yalkut Yosef 199:4 (199:6 in Kitzur Shulchan Aruch), and Piskei Teshuvot (199:5) all hold say one may only use one Kattan regardless. The Birkat Hashem quotes many | * The Kaf HaChaim (199:30), Birkat Hashem (vol. 2 ch. 6:25), Halacha Berurah (199:13), Yalkut Yosef 199:4 (199:6 in Kitzur Shulchan Aruch), and Piskei Teshuvot (199:5) all hold say one may only use one Kattan regardless. The Birkat Hashem quotes many Sephardi Poskim, such as the Birkei Yosef, Erech HaShulchan (199:2), Kaf HaChaim ibid, Siddur Beit Menuchah, Chessed LeAlaphim, and Yechaved Daat 4:13.</ref> | ||
#If a | #If a Sephardi, Ashkenazi, and Kattan (Sephardi) eat bread together, they may make a zimmun if the Sephardi leads. If they're ten total, consisting of eight Sephardim, and Ashkenazi, and a Kattan, they Sephardim may make a zimmun baShem, but the Ashkenazim should answer quietly without Hashem's name in a way that no one will notice the omission.<ref>VeZot HaBeracha (pg. 132) quotes the ruling of R' Chaim Pinchas Sheinberg and Rav Mordechai Eliyahu that if a Sephardi, Ashkenazi, and Kattan eat together, they may make a zimmun and the Sephardi should be Mezamen. Moreover, Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach holds that if they're eight Sephardim, an Askenazi, and a Kattan, one of the Sephardim should make a zimmun BaShem, but the Ashkenazi should answer quietly without the Shem. This is also the ruling of the Piskei Teshuvot (199:5) and it's quoted in Yalkut Yosef (Heb-Eng) there.</ref> | ||
#Three Ketanim who eat together may not make their own zimmun<ref>The Perishah had a Girsa in the Tur that ketanim could make their own zimmun, but the Kaf HaChaim (199:18) points out from Maamar Mordechai (199:2) and Yafeh LeLev (199:2) that the Turim printed from the times of Maran and the Bach did not have that Girsa. Neither did the Rambam or Shulchan Aruch themselves. Rav David Yosef (Halacha Berurah 199:14) says that three ketanim who eat together should not make their own zimmun.</ref> | #Three Ketanim who eat together may not make their own zimmun<ref>The Perishah had a Girsa in the Tur that ketanim could make their own zimmun, but the Kaf HaChaim (199:18) points out from Maamar Mordechai (199:2) and Yafeh LeLev (199:2) that the Turim printed from the times of Maran and the Bach did not have that Girsa. Neither did the Rambam or Shulchan Aruch themselves. Rav David Yosef (Halacha Berurah 199:14) says that three ketanim who eat together should not make their own zimmun.</ref> | ||
# Ashkenazi Ketanim should still answer to a zimmun that they hear according to how much they ate with those bentching.<ref>The Piskei Teshuvot (199:5) says that they should answer as appropriate to other people's zimmun based on [[Chinuch]] if they ate together with those making a zimmun.</ref> | # Ashkenazi Ketanim should still answer to a zimmun that they hear according to how much they ate with those bentching.<ref>The Piskei Teshuvot (199:5) says that they should answer as appropriate to other people's zimmun based on [[Chinuch]] if they ate together with those making a zimmun.</ref> | ||
