When Is It Permitted to Benefit the Lender: Difference between revisions
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#It is forbidden to buy an honor in Shul for one's lender.<Ref>Shach 166:1</ref> | #It is forbidden to buy an honor in Shul for one's lender.<Ref>Shach 166:1</ref> | ||
===Favors, Kind Gestures, and Saying Thank You (Ribbit | ===Favors, Kind Gestures, and Saying Thank You (Ribbit Devarim)=== | ||
# It is forbidden to give any benefit to the lender | # It is forbidden to give any benefit to the lender. Even a nice word or greeting them with a simple word hello can be forbidden if a person didn’t usually say hello before the loan and one is doing it because of the loan.<ref>Gemara Bava Metsia 75b, Rambam Malveh Vi'Loveh 5:12, Shulchan Aruch Y.D. 160:11</ref> This is called Ribbit Devarim and is a rabbinically forbidden form of ribbit.<ref>Chelkat Binyamin 160:95, The Laws of Ribbis (Rabbi Reisman) Chapter 3:note 16, Bris Yehuda 11: note 62, Horaa Berura 160:56, Chochmat Adam 131:11<br> | ||
#Ribbit Devarim only applies during the duration of the loan and not before or afterwards.<ref>Rabbenu Yerucham Meisharim 8:1, Meyuchas LRitva Bava Metsia 68b s.v. visura, Radvaz 3:1060, Chelket Binyamin 160:99 and 95 citing Ran Ketubot 46a, Sefer Hatrumot 3:13, Shulchan Aruch 160:10</ref> Some say that even after the loan is repaid it is forbidden to thank someone for a loan explicitly because of the loan; also it is forbidden to flatter someone to give you a loan before the loan begins.<reF>Horah Brurah on 160:11 citing Shulchan Aruch Harav 160:9</ref> | Is it Diroayta or Dirabanan? | ||
# | * Sefer Hatrumot Shaar 46:3:13, as well as the Ran (Ketubot 46b or 16b in Dapei Harif) say that this prohibition is dirabanan. See also Rambam Peirush Hamishnayot. Chelkat Binyamin 160:95, The Laws of Ribbis (Rabbi Reisman) Chapter 3:note 16, Bris Yehuda 11: note 62, Horaa Berura 160:56, Chochmat Adam 131:11 all write that this is the accepted opinion, and the pasuk quoted by the Gemara is just as asmachta. | ||
#It is forbidden to write in a sefer thank you to someone who lent you money in order to publish a sefer.<ref>Igrot Moshe YD 1:80. There he permits writing that Hashem should bless the person since that is a mitzvah to publicize someone who does a mitzvah.</ref> | * Rav Elchonon Wasserman (Kovetz Shiurim Kiddushin Ot 77) writes that the implication of Tosafot Kiddushin 8b “Tzedaka Minayin” is that this prohibition is actually from the Torah. (See there where he questions such a possibility. See also Yabea Omer YD 4:9 where he discusses whether Tosafot really hold that way). Sefer Yereim 118 and Smag (Rav 193) hold this way. Yabea Omer 4:9 quotes this as the opinion of the Rivash 147 as well</ref> | ||
# it is forbidden for the lender to ask the borrower for any favor even something simple as alerting him when someone will come to a certain place.<ref>Mishna Bava Metsia 75b, Shulchan Aruch 160:12</ref> | # Ribbit Devarim only applies during the duration of the loan and not before or afterwards.<ref>Rabbenu Yerucham Meisharim 8:1, Meyuchas LRitva Bava Metsia 68b s.v. visura, Radvaz 3:1060, Chelket Binyamin 160:99 and 95 citing Ran Ketubot 46a, Sefer Hatrumot 3:13, Shulchan Aruch 160:10</ref> Some say that even after the loan is repaid it is forbidden to thank someone for a loan explicitly because of the loan; also it is forbidden to flatter someone to give you a loan before the loan begins.<reF>Horah Brurah on 160:11 citing Shulchan Aruch Harav 160:9</ref> | ||
# It is forbidden to ask the borrower to do something for you even if he would have done so anyway.<ref>Taz 160:5 in explaining the Rambam, Chelkat Binyamin 160:111. Rav Meir Akoka in Bnetivot Hahorah 10:24 p. 150 proves from the S"A 172:4, S"A 160:23, and Mabit 1:6 unlike the Taz. He applies the Taz to many examples including: lending money on condition that he stops smoking, he puts conditions on how he can spend the money properly, for a certain apartment, how the loan is repaid with check or cash. </ref> | # Many poskim permit thanking the lender with a simple thank you<ref>see [https://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/866229/rabbi-aryeh-lebowitz/from-the-rabbi-s-desk-the-prohibition-to-say-thank-you/ Rabbi Aryeh Lebowitz]<br> | ||
* [https://www.torahbase.org/%D7%A4%D7%A8%D7%A9%D7%AA-%D7%9B%D7%99-%D7%AA%D7%A6%D7%90-%D7%A8%D7%91%D7%99%D7%AA-%D7%91%D7%93%D7%91%D7%A8%D7%99%D7%9D-%D7%95%D7%91%D7%98%D7%95%D7%91%D7%AA-%D7%94%D7%A0%D7%90%D7%94/ Rav Osher Weiss] argues emphatically that a simple thank you is permitted and proper | |||
* Horaa Berura 160:60 permits this as well because it is just being polite. Additionally, since he will respond with a "you're welcome," the two pleasantries cancel each other out. He adds (Shaar Hatziyun 137) that it would only be allowed at the time of borrowing or repaying, but not at a random other time where it isn't necessary. | |||
* [https://www.torahanytime.com/#/lectures?a=16507 Rabbi Gershon West] says in the name of Rav Shmuel Fuerst, that even though Rav Moshe Feinstein writes that publishing a thank you in a sefer is not permitted, he would allow saying a thank you when borrowing. | |||
* Chacham Ovadia Yosef (Halichot Olam 8: pg. 14) allows it. Ribbis Le-Or Ha-Halachah cites from Chacham Ben-Zion Abba Shaul that one can be lenient in this matter</ref> Others question the permissibility since it is giving something to the lender in return for the loan in addition to the original loan. Some are lenient since it is a generally accepted custom to thank people for very small favors and so it is rude to do otherwise and if the entire expression of gratitude is minimal it is like it was normal to do beforehand. see also Orchos Rabbenu 4: pg. 65 who writes that when the Chazon Ish would lend someone money, he would tell them not to say thank you<ref> | |||
* Chelkat Binyamin 160:108 presents reasons to be lenient since thanking someone for a loan is merely a sign of derech eretz and not in exchange for the loan. See there at length. Additionally, he cites Minchat Shlomo 1:27:1 and 2:68 based on Graz is strict.<br> | |||
</ref> | |||
# It is forbidden to write in a sefer thank you to someone who lent you money in order to publish a sefer.<ref>Igrot Moshe YD 1:80. There he permits writing that Hashem should bless the person since that is a mitzvah to publicize someone who does a mitzvah. Darkei Teshuva 88 quotes the Erech Shai who is machmir and the Marbeh Torah who is lenient. Yabea Omer YD 4:9 recommends that if one wants to thank a lender, that some of the money, should be used as a donation, or even the purchase of the eventual sefer, rather than a loan</ref> Others permit this.<ref>Rabbi Meir Mazuz (Ohr Torah 22:2:4) allows this for the mitzva and cites several example of sefarim that were published with thank you’s to the lender at the beginning.</ref> | |||
# Some say that you can praise your lender to others because it isn’t interest that goes from the borrower to the lender. <ref> The Laws of Ribbis 3:13 and Bris Yehuda 11: note 63 based on Shulchan Aruch Harav 9. see however Yabea Omer 4:9:4 </ref> | |||
# If the lender initiates a greeting, the borrower can respond.<ref> The Laws of Ribbis 3:11 based on the language of Shulchan Aruch 160:11 </ref> | |||
# It is forbidden for the lender to ask the borrower for any favor even something simple as alerting him when someone will come to a certain place.<ref>Mishna Bava Metsia 75b, Shulchan Aruch 160:12</ref> | |||
# It is forbidden to ask the borrower to do something for you, even if he would have done so anyway.<ref>Taz 160:5 in explaining the Rambam, Chelkat Binyamin 160:111. Rav Meir Akoka in Bnetivot Hahorah 10:24 p. 150 proves from the S"A 172:4, S"A 160:23, and Mabit 1:6 unlike the Taz. He applies the Taz to many examples including: lending money on condition that he stops smoking, he puts conditions on how he can spend the money properly, for a certain apartment, how the loan is repaid with check or cash. </ref> | |||
# The borrower can’t go to the simcha (celebration) of the lender unless he would have done so anyway.<ref>Chelkat Binyamin 160:112</ref> | # The borrower can’t go to the simcha (celebration) of the lender unless he would have done so anyway.<ref>Chelkat Binyamin 160:112</ref> | ||
| Line 52: | Line 63: | ||
# It is forbidden to stipulate that you will lend me money and I'll hire you for a fair price because that is considered as though one is paying them for the loan. There is a dispute if this is Biblical or rabbinic interest.<ref>Maharam (kirmona edition, responsa 257), Rama Y.D. 166:3. Chelkat Binyamin 160:43 writes that the Maharam writes that it is Biblical interest, while the Rama 166:3 implies it is only rabbinic interest. He concludes that it is an unresolved dispute.</ref> | # It is forbidden to stipulate that you will lend me money and I'll hire you for a fair price because that is considered as though one is paying them for the loan. There is a dispute if this is Biblical or rabbinic interest.<ref>Maharam (kirmona edition, responsa 257), Rama Y.D. 166:3. Chelkat Binyamin 160:43 writes that the Maharam writes that it is Biblical interest, while the Rama 166:3 implies it is only rabbinic interest. He concludes that it is an unresolved dispute.</ref> | ||
# It is forbidden to lend money to someone and in the same situation be hired by him for a fare price because that appears to be interest. However, it is permitted if it is done in two settings. Alternatively, it is permitted if the loan is given as a complete gift even though the borrower is likely to give the gift back.<ref>Rama 166:3, Chelkat Binyamin 166:45, Shulchan Aruch Y.D. 177:13</ref> | # It is forbidden to lend money to someone and in the same situation be hired by him for a fare price because that appears to be interest. However, it is permitted if it is done in two settings. Alternatively, it is permitted if the loan is given as a complete gift even though the borrower is likely to give the gift back.<ref>Rama 166:3, Chelkat Binyamin 166:45, Shulchan Aruch Y.D. 177:13</ref> | ||
===Right of First Refusal=== | |||
# If a person lent money to another Jew so that they could buy a piece of real estate and added a clause that granted the right of first refusal to the lender that would be forbidden as interest.<ref>Because the lender is stipulating that he has the right to buy back that piece of real estate if the seller chooses to sell it that is considered a benefit he is extracting from the borrower. According to the Nekudat Hakesef 160:23's first answer it is forbidden unless that original piece of real estate was a collateral for the loan. According to the second answer it could be permitted if it is a fair price for the real estate. Additionally, the Chavot Daat answers that it is forbidden to stipulate the right to buy a real estate unless it is sold retroactively from the time of the loan so that the loan reverts to a sale and the ownership was in the hands of the "lender" for the duration of the "loan". The only answer that would permit this deal is the second answer of the Shach. The poskim do not rely on the second answer of the Shach alone (Chelkat Binyamin 172:72, Brit Yehuda 11:25).</ref> This could be remedied by having the lender pay the borrower the standard brokerage fee for not having to pursue this deal.<ref>[https://businesshalacha.com/en/business-weekly/archive/78?selected=1 Business Halacha (Beshalach 5778)]</ref> | |||
==Non-Financial Benefit== | ==Non-Financial Benefit== | ||
| Line 58: | Line 71: | ||
# There’s no prohibition to do a non-financial favor after the loan was paid up. <Ref> Birkei Yosef Y”D 160:11, The Weekly Halachah Discussion (vol 2, pg 348), Malveh Hashem (vol 1, 8:30) </ref> | # There’s no prohibition to do a non-financial favor after the loan was paid up. <Ref> Birkei Yosef Y”D 160:11, The Weekly Halachah Discussion (vol 2, pg 348), Malveh Hashem (vol 1, 8:30) </ref> | ||
==Collateral Fields== | ==Collateral Fields== | ||
# It is forbidden for a lender to use the collateral that the borrower provided without certain conditions.<ref>Shulchan Aruch 164:4</ref> | {| class="wikitable" style="vertical-align:bottom;" | ||
|- style="text-align:center;" | |||
! style="text-align:left;" | | |||
! colspan="4" | Field | |||
! colspan="4" | House | |||
! colspan="2" | Mashkanta Dsura | |||
|- style="text-align:center;" | |||
| style="text-align:left;" | | |||
| colspan="2" | Place they don't kick out | |||
| colspan="2" | Place that they can kick you out | |||
| colspan="2" | Place they don't kick out | |||
| colspan="2" | Place that they can kick you out | |||
| colspan="2" | Field, House | |||
|- style="text-align:center;" | |||
| style="text-align:left;" | | |||
| Paying Nechayta | |||
| Not Paying | |||
| Paying Nechayta | |||
| Not Paying | |||
| Paying Nechayta | |||
| Not Paying | |||
| Paying Nechayta | |||
| Not Paying | |||
| style="text-align:left;" | Place they don't kick out | |||
| style="text-align:left;" | Place that they can kick you out | |||
|- | |||
| Rashi | |||
| style="background-color:rgb(0, 255, 0);" | Muter | |||
| style="background-color:rgb(0, 255, 0);" | Muter | |||
| style="background-color:rgb(0, 255, 0);" | Muter | |||
| style="background-color:rgb(255, 255, 0);" | Rabbinic | |||
| style="font-style:italic; background-color:rgb(0, 255, 0);" | Muter | |||
| style="font-style:italic; background-color:rgb(0, 255, 0);" | Muter | |||
| style="background-color:rgb(255, 255, 0);" | Rabbinic | |||
| style="background-color:rgb(255, 0, 0);" | Biblical | |||
| style="background-color:rgb(0, 255, 0);" | Muter | |||
| style="background-color:rgb(0, 255, 0);" | Muter | |||
|- | |||
| R"T, Ri | |||
| style="background-color:rgb(0, 255, 0);" | Muter | |||
| style="background-color:rgb(0, 255, 0);" | Muter | |||
| style="background-color:rgb(0, 255, 0);" | Muter | |||
| style="background-color:rgb(255, 255, 0);" | Rabbinic | |||
| style="font-style:italic; background-color:rgb(0, 255, 0);" | Muter | |||
| style="font-style:italic; background-color:rgb(0, 255, 0);" | Muter | |||
| style="background-color:rgb(0, 255, 0);" | Muter | |||
| style="font-style:italic; background-color:rgb(255, 255, 0);" | Rabbinic | |||
| style="background-color:rgb(0, 255, 0);" | Muter | |||
| style="background-color:rgb(0, 255, 0);" | Muter | |||
|- | |||
| Rashba | |||
| style="background-color:rgb(0, 255, 0);" | Muter | |||
| style="background-color:rgb(255, 255, 0);" | Rabbinic | |||
| style="background-color:rgb(0, 255, 0);" | Muter | |||
| style="background-color:rgb(255, 0, 0);" | Biblical | |||
| style="background-color:rgb(0, 255, 0);" | Muter | |||
| style="background-color:rgb(255, 255, 0);" | Rabbinic | |||
| style="background-color:rgb(0, 255, 0);" | Muter | |||
| style="background-color:rgb(255, 0, 0);" | Biblical | |||
| style="background-color:rgb(0, 255, 0);" | Muter | |||
| style="background-color:rgb(255, 255, 0);" | Rabbinic | |||
|- | |||
| Rambam | |||
| style="background-color:rgb(0, 255, 0);" | Muter | |||
| style="background-color:rgb(255, 255, 0);" | Rabbinic | |||
| style="background-color:rgb(0, 255, 0);" | Muter | |||
| style="background-color:rgb(255, 255, 0);" | Rabbinic | |||
| style="background-color:rgb(255, 255, 0);" | Rabbinic | |||
| style="background-color:rgb(255, 0, 0);" | Biblical | |||
| style="background-color:rgb(255, 255, 0);" | Rabbinic | |||
| style="background-color:rgb(255, 0, 0);" | Biblical | |||
| style="background-color:rgb(0, 255, 0);" | Muter | |||
| style="background-color:rgb(0, 255, 0);" | Muter | |||
|- | |||
| Rif | |||
| style="background-color:rgb(255, 255, 0);" | Rabbinic | |||
| style="background-color:rgb(255, 255, 0);" | Rabbinic | |||
| style="background-color:rgb(255, 255, 0);" | Rabbinic | |||
| style="background-color:rgb(255, 0, 0);" | Biblical | |||
| style="font-style:italic; background-color:rgb(255, 255, 0);" | Rabbinic | |||
| style="font-style:italic; background-color:rgb(255, 255, 0);" | Rabbinic | |||
| style="font-style:italic; background-color:rgb(255, 255, 0);" | Rabbinic | |||
| style="background-color:rgb(255, 0, 0);" | Biblical | |||
| style="background-color:rgb(0, 255, 0);" | Muter | |||
| style="background-color:rgb(0, 255, 0);" | Muter | |||
|- | |||
| Geonim | |||
| style="background-color:rgb(255, 255, 0);" | Rabbinic | |||
| style="background-color:rgb(255, 0, 0);" | Biblical | |||
| style="background-color:rgb(255, 255, 0);" | Rabbinic | |||
| style="background-color:rgb(255, 0, 0);" | Biblical | |||
| style="background-color:rgb(255, 255, 0);" | Rabbinic | |||
| style="background-color:rgb(255, 0, 0);" | Biblical | |||
| style="background-color:rgb(255, 255, 0);" | Rabbinic | |||
| style="background-color:rgb(255, 0, 0);" | Biblical | |||
| style="background-color:rgb(0, 255, 0);" | Muter | |||
| style="background-color:rgb(0, 255, 0);" | Muter | |||
|- | |||
| Raavad | |||
| style="background-color:rgb(0, 255, 0);" | Muter | |||
| style="background-color:rgb(255, 255, 0);" | Rabbinic | |||
| style="background-color:rgb(255, 255, 0);" | Rabbinic | |||
| style="background-color:rgb(255, 0, 0);" | Biblical | |||
| style="background-color:rgb(0, 255, 0);" | Muter | |||
| style="font-style:italic; background-color:rgb(255, 255, 0);" | Rabbinic | |||
| style="font-style:italic; background-color:rgb(255, 255, 0);" | Rabbinic | |||
| style="font-style:italic; background-color:rgb(255, 0, 0);" | Biblical | |||
| style="font-style:italic; background-color:rgb(0, 255, 0);" | Muter | |||
| style="font-style:italic; background-color:rgb(255, 255, 0);" | Rabbinic | |||
|} | |||
# It is forbidden for a lender to use the collateral that the borrower provided without certain conditions.<ref>Shulchan Aruch 164:4</ref> According to Ashkenazim it is permitted for a borrower to eat the fruit of the collateral field if either he pays for the fruit or there is a condition that the borrower can't kick him out of the field at any time. However, according to Sephardim it is always forbidden unless they use a system in which the fruit of the collateral serves as the pay of the loan and at a certain date the fruit are considered to have paid off the loan (''Mashkanta Dsura'').<ref>The opinion of Rashi (B"m 71a s.v. lo mesalkinan) is that it is permitted for a lender to eat the fruit except for where they kick out the lender at any time and he isn't pay for the fruit. Even then it is only rabbinic. Tosfot b"m 64b and Rosh b"m 5:34 agree. Rashba b"m 68a s.v. linyan holds that if he pays it is permitted while if he doesn't it is forbidden. The Rif b"m 38b and Rambam Malveh Vloveh 6:7 hold it is forbidden in all cases for the lender to eat the fruit. The only pay to permit a lender to benefit from the fruit is if they use the Mashkanta Dsura method. Under the Mashkanta Dsura the fruit of the collateral serve as the payment of the loan and after a certain amount of time the field is returned to the borrowed for nothing else in exchange. The Shulchan Aruch 172:1 seems to follow the opinion of the Rif, while the Rama follows the opinion of the Rabbenu Tam and also cites Rashba, however, he notes that each place should follow their minhag. | |||
The Shach 172:1 clarifies that the Shulchan Aruch holds for the contingency of Mashkanta Dsura to be effective it needs to have the language of that the loan will be paid by a certain time and the field will be returned, which implies a sale as opposed to a loan. Additionally, it must be the case that the lender can't force the borrower to repay the loan at any time.</ref> | |||
# Mashkanta Dsura is equally effective for a house as it is for a field.<ref>Shulchan Aruch Y.D. 172:1, Shach 172:4</ref> | |||
# There is no minimum price above a [[pruta]] that the lender has to offer the borrower for the fruits each year.<ref>Shulchan Aruch Y.D. 172:1 writes a small amount. Shach 172:6 writes that it doesn't need to be the amount set by the Torah to redeem a field which is a sela and a pundiyon for a field the size of a chomer unlike the opinion of the Hagahot Mordechai 436. Netivot Moshe Shach 172:2 writes that perhaps even the Hagahot Mordechai would agree for a Mashkanta Dsura and only held his opinion with respect to a regular collateral. Chelkat Binyamin 172:1 p. 424 s.v. umenakeh based on Radvaz 186 writes that perhaps one couldn't pay such a small amount that it would be evident that it is because of interest. However, Chelkat Binyamin isn't certain that it applies to Mashkanta Dsura.</ref> | |||
# If the lender eats the fruit of the field of the borrower that was a collateral some say that it is Biblical interest,<Ref>Shulchan Aruch Y.D. 164:4</ref> while others hold it is only rabbinic interest.<ref>Rama 164:4</ref> | # If the lender eats the fruit of the field of the borrower that was a collateral some say that it is Biblical interest,<Ref>Shulchan Aruch Y.D. 164:4</ref> while others hold it is only rabbinic interest.<ref>Rama 164:4</ref> | ||
# If the lender pays the borrower so that he is obligated to fix somethings with the collateral it is permitted. However, if the lender pays the borrower so that he should accept responsible for everything about the collateral such that if it is destroyed he is to replace it that is forbidden.<Ref>Shulchan Aruch Y.D. 172:3</ref> | |||
# It is permitted to redeem a collateral part at a time, however, if there was a stipulation for the lender to eat the fruit for a certain deduction he can continue to do so the entire duration of the originally stipulated loan.<ref>Rama 172:3, Shach 172:22, Gra 172:15</ref> | |||
==Payments from a Third Party to Create a Loan== | ==Payments from a Third Party to Create a Loan== | ||
# It is permitted to give someone money in order that they lend money to someone else.<ref>Gemara Bava Metsia 69b</ref> That is only permitted on condition that the giver isn’t reimbursed by the borrower. Furthermore, the borrower can’t tell the lender that the giver is giving on his behalf.<ref>Rosh b”m 5:47 holds that it is necessary to have 3 conditions in order for someone to give a gift to a lender. 1) the giver isn’t reimbursed by the borrower, 2) the borrower can’t tell the lender that he should lend him because of that gift, and 3) the borrower can’t initiate to have someone give a gift to the lender. The Ramban b”m 69b s.v. shari disagrees with condition 3 since ultimately the money isn’t given from the borrower it is permitted. Additionally, it is clear that the Ramban forbade asking an agent to give a gift for him. Ritva 69b s.v. amar accepts the Ramban that it is permitted to convince the giver to give the gift and he even allows the borrower to reimburse the giver since the giver gave it on his own. Shulchan Aruch Y.D. 160:13 accepts the Ramban but still insists that the first two conditions are necessary. Pitchei Teshuva 160:9 quotes the Mishna Lmelech Malveh 5:14 and Shaar Hamelech who think that according to the Ramban the second condition isn’t necessary. Chelkat Binyamin 160:128 quotes a dispute about this point and is lenient only in an extenuating circumstance as Shulchan Aruch implies that this second condition is absolutely necessary.</ref> | # It is permitted to give someone money in order that they lend money to someone else.<ref>Gemara Bava Metsia 69b</ref> That is only permitted on condition that the giver isn’t reimbursed by the borrower. Furthermore, the borrower can’t tell the lender that the giver is giving on his behalf.<ref>Rosh b”m 5:47 holds that it is necessary to have 3 conditions in order for someone to give a gift to a lender. 1) the giver isn’t reimbursed by the borrower, 2) the borrower can’t tell the lender that he should lend him because of that gift, and 3) the borrower can’t initiate to have someone give a gift to the lender. The Ramban b”m 69b s.v. shari disagrees with condition 3 since ultimately the money isn’t given from the borrower it is permitted. Additionally, it is clear that the Ramban forbade asking an agent to give a gift for him. Ritva 69b s.v. amar accepts the Ramban that it is permitted to convince the giver to give the gift and he even allows the borrower to reimburse the giver since the giver gave it on his own. Shulchan Aruch Y.D. 160:13 accepts the Ramban but still insists that the first two conditions are necessary. Pitchei Teshuva 160:9 quotes the Mishna Lmelech Malveh 5:14 and Shaar Hamelech who think that according to the Ramban the second condition isn’t necessary. Chelkat Binyamin 160:128 quotes a dispute about this point and is lenient only in an extenuating circumstance as Shulchan Aruch implies that this second condition is absolutely necessary.</ref> | ||
