Difference between revisions of "Talk:When Does Shabbat End?"

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Thank you for the Sephardic custom. If anyone knows the customs in the other Minhagim that would be great. I know for Qaraites there are simply too many different opinions for me to say. [[User:MishnaQaraite|MishnaQaraite]] ([[User talk:MishnaQaraite|talk]]) 13:58, 14 January 2016 (EST)
 
Thank you for the Sephardic custom. If anyone knows the customs in the other Minhagim that would be great. I know for Qaraites there are simply too many different opinions for me to say. [[User:MishnaQaraite|MishnaQaraite]] ([[User talk:MishnaQaraite|talk]]) 13:58, 14 January 2016 (EST)
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<br>I appreciate your comment though just to clarify this website is for Orthodox halacha and not Qaraite practices.
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I have also heard that it is a Mitzvah to eat something for [[Motzei Shabbat]] could you provide details on this please? [[User:MishnaQaraite|MishnaQaraite]] ([[User talk:MishnaQaraite|talk]]) 15:45, 14 January 2016 (EST)
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<br>There is a mitzvah of [[Melava Malka]] which is a mitzvah to eat a meal after Shabbat.--[[User:YitzchakSultan|YitzchakSultan]] ([[User talk:YitzchakSultan|talk]]) 21:05, 16 January 2016 (EST)
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:Thank you very much [[User:YitzchakSultan]], I observe Melava Malka but had only heard recently that Orthodox Jews do the same thing -which I think is beautiful! :D I think a link in the article to [[Havdalah]] and [[Melava Malka]] would certainly be appropriate wouldn't it? [[User:MishnaQaraite|MishnaQaraite]] ([[User talk:MishnaQaraite|talk]]) 03:42, 18 January 2016 (EST)
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: I agree with the idea for the links.--[[User:YitzchakSultan|YitzchakSultan]] ([[User talk:YitzchakSultan|talk]]) 00:12, 19 January 2016 (EST)
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== Resolving Yerushalmi Brachot 1:1 for Each Approach ==
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* Yerushalmi Brachot 1:1 discusses why the twilight of the morning from Olot Hashachar until Netz is considered day if the twilight at night from Shekiya until Tzeit is also considered day. The gemara answers either that it is based on pesukim or logic that Olot Hashachar is already called day. One of the reasons presented is that just like a king when he comes to greet the people everyone in their anticipation considers it like he came even before he actually arrives. When he leaves they don't consider it like he left until he actually left. That is why both the twilight of the morning and the night are considered day. This is consistent with Rabbenu Tam and in fact the Ramban in Torat Haadam Avelut Yeshana cites this Yerushalmi as a proof for Rabbenu Tam. However, the Rashba Shabbat 35a cites the Yerushalmi as a proof against Rabbenu Tam. The Peni Moshe Brachot 1:1, the teacher of the Gra, explains the Yerushalmi according to the Gra. The Yerushalmi asked why is the twilight of the morning from Olot Hashachar until Netz considered day if part of the twilight at night from Shekiya until Tzeit is considered night.
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* Tangentially, the other reason that the Yerushalmi provides is seemingly incomprehensible according to everyone. It says that if both twilights were considered night then the day and night would be unequal. The Minchat Cohen ch. 4 emends the text and explains it as a question. However, the Mareh Panim Brachot 1:1 s.v. im explains that it doesn't mean equal; it just means discernable. Since it isn't possible to have a clear time that is comparable to tzeit hakochavim in the morning in the middle of the twilight, the Torah established olot as the beginning of the day.
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== Proofs for Rabbenu Tam ==
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*Zevachim 56a says that the pasuk invalidates the blood of a korban after shekiya. Why is that necessary? Isn't it clear from the Gemara Megillah that all avoda is pasul at night and once the morning hits it'll be pasul anyway. What then is added with this pasuk? Rabbenu Tam proves from here that day usually goes until the second shekiya, however, blood is invalid at the first shekiya, astronomical sunset.
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*Tanit 12a which states that a tanit is not finished until shekiya clearly means the end of shekiya since it couldn't be permitted at sunset, which is still day.
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*Shabbat 21b establishes the time for Chanuka candles to be משתקע החמה and it is impossible for that to be at sunset since there's no use in lighting a candle when it is still light outside. Rather it means lighting it at the end of the second shekiya.
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== Answers for Rabbenu Tam's Proofs ==
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* Zevachim 56a: The Gra mentions this gemara and finds it isn't an issue with his approach, though he doesn't clarify how.
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* Tanit 12a: The Gra YD 262:9 explains that fundamentally it should be permitted to eat during ben hashemashot of a rabbinic fast day, however, because we follow the opinion of Rabbi Yosi and Rabbi Yosi's ben hashemashot is after Rabbi Yehuda's, it is indeed forbidden to eat during the entire duration of ben hashemashot of Rabbi Yehuda.
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* Shabbat 21b: Maharam Alshaker 96 and Gra dispute Rabbenu Tam's assumption about the language משתקע החמה. They say that the language in fact implies the beginning of shekiya and say that one should light at the beginning of shekiya. They don't directly address the issue of lighting while it is light outside.
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== Contradiction in Rambam about Shiur Mil ==
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Orot Chaim p. 339 answers for the Rambam that in fact the real shiur mil is 18 minutes as he writes in Brachot 1:1 and the reason he works with the 24 minute mil in Pesachim 9:1 and Korban Pesach 5:8 is because that is based on walking slowly. The Rambam in fact mentions that the walking for that 15 mil is measured by walking slowly.
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== Mil according to Shulchan Aruch ==
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Unlike Dr. Levy, Derech Yeshara p. 171 proves that the Trumat Hadeshen and Shulchan Aruch actually hold that the mil is 18 minutes since the [https://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=49438&pgnum=78 Leket Yosher p. 79], the student of the Trumat Hadeshen, says that the 40 mil is measured from Olot until Tzeit.
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To clarify, Dr. Levy notes that the Gra's point that it is impossible to have 12 60-minute hours from Olot to Tzet during the equinox season and so 12 hours certainly refers to Netz until Shekiya is very compelling. Therefore, he claims that in fact the Trumat Hadeshen meant that there were 12 seasonal hours counted from Olot until Tzet. That being the case, the 40 mil spanning from Olot until Tzet would indeed be 22.5 minutes. Dr. Levy in fact says that this is indeed the opinion of the Trumat Hadeshen and Shulchan Aruch who adopts his approach. Even though the Gra vehemently disagreed with the approach of the Trumat Hadeshen calling it a great mistake, a wonderment, and a blunder, perhaps he too just meant that he confused people in how he wrote. Derech Yeshara disagrees. For one, Leket Yosher p. 79c certainly does not accept the Gra's interpretation in the Trumat Hadeshen, though it is not clear how he would answer the Gra's question. He seems to hold of the 18 minute mil and also calculate the 40 mil from Olot until Tzet. The Raah Brachot 26a s.v. plag and Shitah Mikubeset Brachot 27a s.v. mdrav who write that 4 mil is an hour and a fifth imply that the mil is 18 minutes and at the same calculate 40 mil from Olot until Tzet. Avudraham (Kriyat Shema) implies this as well.

Latest revision as of 18:12, 21 April 2021

Thank you for the Sephardic custom. If anyone knows the customs in the other Minhagim that would be great. I know for Qaraites there are simply too many different opinions for me to say. MishnaQaraite (talk) 13:58, 14 January 2016 (EST)
I appreciate your comment though just to clarify this website is for Orthodox halacha and not Qaraite practices.

I have also heard that it is a Mitzvah to eat something for Motzei Shabbat could you provide details on this please? MishnaQaraite (talk) 15:45, 14 January 2016 (EST)
There is a mitzvah of Melava Malka which is a mitzvah to eat a meal after Shabbat.--YitzchakSultan (talk) 21:05, 16 January 2016 (EST)

Thank you very much User:YitzchakSultan, I observe Melava Malka but had only heard recently that Orthodox Jews do the same thing -which I think is beautiful! :D I think a link in the article to Havdalah and Melava Malka would certainly be appropriate wouldn't it? MishnaQaraite (talk) 03:42, 18 January 2016 (EST)
I agree with the idea for the links.--YitzchakSultan (talk) 00:12, 19 January 2016 (EST)

Resolving Yerushalmi Brachot 1:1 for Each Approach

  • Yerushalmi Brachot 1:1 discusses why the twilight of the morning from Olot Hashachar until Netz is considered day if the twilight at night from Shekiya until Tzeit is also considered day. The gemara answers either that it is based on pesukim or logic that Olot Hashachar is already called day. One of the reasons presented is that just like a king when he comes to greet the people everyone in their anticipation considers it like he came even before he actually arrives. When he leaves they don't consider it like he left until he actually left. That is why both the twilight of the morning and the night are considered day. This is consistent with Rabbenu Tam and in fact the Ramban in Torat Haadam Avelut Yeshana cites this Yerushalmi as a proof for Rabbenu Tam. However, the Rashba Shabbat 35a cites the Yerushalmi as a proof against Rabbenu Tam. The Peni Moshe Brachot 1:1, the teacher of the Gra, explains the Yerushalmi according to the Gra. The Yerushalmi asked why is the twilight of the morning from Olot Hashachar until Netz considered day if part of the twilight at night from Shekiya until Tzeit is considered night.
  • Tangentially, the other reason that the Yerushalmi provides is seemingly incomprehensible according to everyone. It says that if both twilights were considered night then the day and night would be unequal. The Minchat Cohen ch. 4 emends the text and explains it as a question. However, the Mareh Panim Brachot 1:1 s.v. im explains that it doesn't mean equal; it just means discernable. Since it isn't possible to have a clear time that is comparable to tzeit hakochavim in the morning in the middle of the twilight, the Torah established olot as the beginning of the day.

Proofs for Rabbenu Tam

  • Zevachim 56a says that the pasuk invalidates the blood of a korban after shekiya. Why is that necessary? Isn't it clear from the Gemara Megillah that all avoda is pasul at night and once the morning hits it'll be pasul anyway. What then is added with this pasuk? Rabbenu Tam proves from here that day usually goes until the second shekiya, however, blood is invalid at the first shekiya, astronomical sunset.
  • Tanit 12a which states that a tanit is not finished until shekiya clearly means the end of shekiya since it couldn't be permitted at sunset, which is still day.
  • Shabbat 21b establishes the time for Chanuka candles to be משתקע החמה and it is impossible for that to be at sunset since there's no use in lighting a candle when it is still light outside. Rather it means lighting it at the end of the second shekiya.

Answers for Rabbenu Tam's Proofs

  • Zevachim 56a: The Gra mentions this gemara and finds it isn't an issue with his approach, though he doesn't clarify how.
  • Tanit 12a: The Gra YD 262:9 explains that fundamentally it should be permitted to eat during ben hashemashot of a rabbinic fast day, however, because we follow the opinion of Rabbi Yosi and Rabbi Yosi's ben hashemashot is after Rabbi Yehuda's, it is indeed forbidden to eat during the entire duration of ben hashemashot of Rabbi Yehuda.
  • Shabbat 21b: Maharam Alshaker 96 and Gra dispute Rabbenu Tam's assumption about the language משתקע החמה. They say that the language in fact implies the beginning of shekiya and say that one should light at the beginning of shekiya. They don't directly address the issue of lighting while it is light outside.

Contradiction in Rambam about Shiur Mil

Orot Chaim p. 339 answers for the Rambam that in fact the real shiur mil is 18 minutes as he writes in Brachot 1:1 and the reason he works with the 24 minute mil in Pesachim 9:1 and Korban Pesach 5:8 is because that is based on walking slowly. The Rambam in fact mentions that the walking for that 15 mil is measured by walking slowly.

Mil according to Shulchan Aruch

Unlike Dr. Levy, Derech Yeshara p. 171 proves that the Trumat Hadeshen and Shulchan Aruch actually hold that the mil is 18 minutes since the Leket Yosher p. 79, the student of the Trumat Hadeshen, says that the 40 mil is measured from Olot until Tzeit. To clarify, Dr. Levy notes that the Gra's point that it is impossible to have 12 60-minute hours from Olot to Tzet during the equinox season and so 12 hours certainly refers to Netz until Shekiya is very compelling. Therefore, he claims that in fact the Trumat Hadeshen meant that there were 12 seasonal hours counted from Olot until Tzet. That being the case, the 40 mil spanning from Olot until Tzet would indeed be 22.5 minutes. Dr. Levy in fact says that this is indeed the opinion of the Trumat Hadeshen and Shulchan Aruch who adopts his approach. Even though the Gra vehemently disagreed with the approach of the Trumat Hadeshen calling it a great mistake, a wonderment, and a blunder, perhaps he too just meant that he confused people in how he wrote. Derech Yeshara disagrees. For one, Leket Yosher p. 79c certainly does not accept the Gra's interpretation in the Trumat Hadeshen, though it is not clear how he would answer the Gra's question. He seems to hold of the 18 minute mil and also calculate the 40 mil from Olot until Tzet. The Raah Brachot 26a s.v. plag and Shitah Mikubeset Brachot 27a s.v. mdrav who write that 4 mil is an hour and a fifth imply that the mil is 18 minutes and at the same calculate 40 mil from Olot until Tzet. Avudraham (Kriyat Shema) implies this as well.