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Taking Interest: Difference between revisions
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→Supplier of a Commodity at a Future Date
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#If a lender asks to be paid the value of the loan in a commodity and the borrower wants to pay with a commodity that is acceptable. | #If a lender asks to be paid the value of the loan in a commodity and the borrower wants to pay with a commodity that is acceptable. | ||
#If the borrower wants to pay with a commodity at a later date and there is a concern that the commodity will change prices in between it is forbidden to do so since the transaction began as a loan and he might be repaid more than he lent. This is forbidden even if the price of the commodity is established in the marketplace.<ref>Rabba on 62b and Rav Oshiya on 63a explain that when a person pays the lender with a commodity at a future date there is a concern for ribbit since the price of the commodity might rise. This problem isn’t solved by the fact that there is an established market price since the borrower wouldn’t be able to buy the commodity with the pre-existing loan.</ref> It is only solved if the borrower has the amount of the commodity he planning on using to repay with<ref>Rashba 62b clarifies that although when discussing seah bseah it is sufficient to have some of the commodity and halachically we consider it as though there were multiple sales using this commodity. However, in the case of a loan that was exchanged for a commodity it remains a loan and in order to permit the potential interest it is essential that it is viewed as a real sale. It is only possible to consider the exchange a real sale if the borrower has the quantity he is offering the lender at the time of the agreement to exchange for the commodity.</ref> at the time of the deal to repay the loan with the commodity.<ref> According to Rabba it isn't even solved if the lender has the commodity, however, according to Rav Oshiya it is solved if he has the commodity.</ref> | #If the borrower wants to pay with a commodity at a later date and there is a concern that the commodity will change prices in between it is forbidden to do so since the transaction began as a loan and he might be repaid more than he lent. This is forbidden even if the price of the commodity is established in the marketplace.<ref>Rabba on 62b and Rav Oshiya on 63a explain that when a person pays the lender with a commodity at a future date there is a concern for ribbit since the price of the commodity might rise. This problem isn’t solved by the fact that there is an established market price since the borrower wouldn’t be able to buy the commodity with the pre-existing loan.</ref> It is only solved if the borrower has the amount of the commodity he planning on using to repay with<ref>Rashba 62b clarifies that although when discussing seah bseah it is sufficient to have some of the commodity and halachically we consider it as though there were multiple sales using this commodity. However, in the case of a loan that was exchanged for a commodity it remains a loan and in order to permit the potential interest it is essential that it is viewed as a real sale. It is only possible to consider the exchange a real sale if the borrower has the quantity he is offering the lender at the time of the agreement to exchange for the commodity.</ref> at the time of the deal to repay the loan with the commodity.<ref> According to Rabba it isn't even solved if the lender has the commodity, however, according to Rav Oshiya it is solved if he has the commodity.</ref> | ||
== | ==Future Contracts of Commodities== | ||
# | # It is forbidden to pay in advance for the later delivery of a commodity since it is possible that the price of the commodity will rise. The two ways to permit this is if the seller has the commodity already or the marketplace price is already fixed.<ref>Shulchan Aruch Y.D. 163:1</ref> | ||
# | # If the price of the commodity drops the buyer can renegotiate his part of the deal and buy it for cheaper.<Ref>Mishna Bava Metsia 72b, Shulchan Aruch Y.D. 175:7</ref> | ||
===Marketplace Price Fixed (Yatza Hashaar)=== | |||
# If the price of the marketplace is fixed it is permitted to pay in advance for the later delivery of a commodity. The reason is since the marketplace price is fixed it is possible for the seller to purchase the commodity immediately with the funds of the buyer. Therefore, it is as though the commodity is already in the position of the seller.<ref>Mishna Bava Metsia 72b, Shulchan Aruch Y.D. 175:1</ref> | |||
# This leniency works independent of the leniency of the seller owning the commodity (Yesh Lo).<Ref>Shulchan Aruch 163:1. See Gra 163:3 who cites Rashi who disagrees and requires both where the original sale starting with a loan.</ref> | |||
# It is forbidden for the seller to charge less than the marketplace price since the buyer is paying in advance, even though the marketplace price is fixed.<ref>Shach 163:4 writes that the leniency of Yatza Hashaar when the contract was set up with a loan doesn't allow charging more than the marketplace price. He is writing this to answer the doubt of the Prisha. Shulchan Aruch 175:1 and 173:7 clarify this point that when using the leniency of Yatza Hashaar one must charge only that price and not a lower price.</ref> | |||
===Has a Position of that Commodity (Yesh Lo)=== | |||
# If the seller of the commodity already has the commodity at the time of the transaction it is permitted. Since the seller has the commodity at the beginning we can view the transaction as though he sold the commodity immediately for the fair marketplace price.<ref>Mishna Bava Metsia 60b, Rav Oshiya on 63b, Shulchan Aruch Y.D. 163:1</ref> Even though they didn't formally have the buyer acquire that commodity at the beginning of the sale since this is only rabbinic interest it is permitted.<ref>Rashi writes that once money is paid the seller can't back out and if he does he is cursed with a Mi Shepara. However, the buyer didn't make a formal [[kinyan]] but it isn't necessary since this is only rabbinic interest. Bet Yosef 163:1, Taz 163:3, and Shach 163:3 cite this Rashi.</ref> | |||
# The seller has to have the full quantity of the commodity to fulfill his end of the deal at the time of the transaction for this leniency to apply.<ref>Rambam Malveh Vloveh 10:6, Ritva b"m 63a s.v. veshma mina, Shulchan Aruch Y.D. 163:1</ref> It isn't similar to the rules of seah bseah since this is considered a sale and not a loan. Therefore, it is necessary for the seller to sell his commodity to the buyer and having part of the commodity is insufficient, whereas for a loan, it is possible to view it as though the borrower lent out his commodity multiple times since something that he lent out remains in his property.<ref>Shach 163:2 and Taz 163:2</ref> | |||
# The seller is believed to say that he has the commodity he is transacting.<Ref>Rama 163:1</ref> | |||
# This leniency is specific to where the seller has the commodity and doesn't extend to where the seller has cash with which he could use to buy the commodity.<ref>Shulchan Aruch 163:1. The Rosh b"m 5:7 implies that it is sufficient for the seller to have cash. Bet Yosef 163:1 argues that this is a mistake and obviously it is necessary to have the commodity and cash is insufficient. The Tiferet Shmuel 5:1 and Pilpula Charifta 5:7:30 agree. Maharam Shif 63a s.v. haashri presents an approach to explain the Rosh if he actually meant that money is sufficient. Taz 163:4 argues that the Rashi, Tur, and Rosh hold that money is sufficient but decides that we should be strict. Gra 163:1 points out that the Mordechai and Hagahot Ashri in fact do have this leniency even if one just has cash. He also concludes that the Rambam thinks it is necessary to have the commodity and not just money.</ref> | |||
# It is permitted to charge a lower price than the marketplace price if the seller has the commodity at the time of the transaction. This isn't similar to relying on the leniency of Yatza Hashaar.<ref>Tosfot Bava Metsia 63b s.v. vamar, Ramban b"m 46a, Shulchan Aruch 173:7</ref> | |||
===Repaying a Loan with a Future in Commodities=== | |||
# When a person purchases a commodity at a future date by making an advanced case payment there are two possible leniencies: if the seller has the commodity or if the marketplace price is fixed. However, if the original transaction is a result of a loan that the seller owed to the buyer and he is using that loan to purchase a future of commodities this transaction can only be permitted when the seller owns the commodity.<ref>Bava Metsia 63a, Shulchan Aruch 163:1</ref> The reason for this distinction is because the leniency of having a marketplace price fixed is that it is possible for the seller to cover his obligation by purchasing the commodity in the marketplace at the time of the transaction. However, if he is doing this transaction as a repayment of a loan that unpaid debt can't possibly be used to buy a commodity in the market.<ref> Shach 163:4, Taz 163:4</ref> | |||
# A person purchased a commodity at a future date with a preexisting loan that the seller owes him. As explained this is only permitted if the seller has that commodity. If later at the time of the delivery date they renegotiate that the seller will exchange the first commodity with another one, it is only permitted if the seller has the second commodity.<ref>Mishna Bava Metsia 60b, Shulchan Aruch Y.D. 163:2</ref> | |||
# A person purchased a commodity at a future date by making an advanced cash payment. Later when the commodity is due to be delivered he renegotiated with the seller to exchange the commodity he was supposed to acquire with another commodity for the current value of the commodity he is owed. This transaction according to some is only permitted if the seller owns a position of the second commodity that is sufficient to cover paying out this transaction. However, according to others it is permitted as long there is a fixed marketplace price. | |||
<ref>Rif bava metsia 34b, Nemukei Yosef 34b quoting Rabbenu Chananel and Rav Hai Goan, Rashba 62b s.v. vki, and Gra Y.D. 175:10 are lenient. The Rif explains that as long as the initial transaction was a sale in the future of a commodity and not a loan it is permitted to switch over the first commodity to the second even if the borrower doesn’t have the commodity.</ref> | |||
===Stipulations for a Default on a Loan=== | |||
# It is forbidden for a person to stipulate that if the borrower can't repay his own he must give a certain commodity to the lender for the price of the commodity that it was worth at the time of the loan. Since this transaction was conditionally a loan it must follow the rules of a loan exchanged for a future in commodities.<ref>Bet Yosef 163, Shach 163:4</ref> | |||
===Future Contracts=== | |||
# It is permitted to do a future contract for a commodity or stock when one doesn't buy the commodity now at all and doesn't pay for it but merely pays a margin deposit. That is considered as though one agreed to buy or sell something at a later date and there's no advanced payments.<ref>Ribbit Btachnit Chischon Lkol Yeled p. 33 writes that buying a future contract isn't considered like pesika since it is only an arrangement that one promises to later buy something when the contract is due. The fact that money is paid for the contract in advance is purely a deposit and that is why there is no interest paid for buying a future contract. He cites Mishpat Shalom cm 209 in his support.</ref> | |||
==Judging by the Time of Stipulation== | ==Judging by the Time of Stipulation== | ||
