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Taking Interest: Difference between revisions
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→Lending with Interest with a Non-Jewish Agent using a Security Deposit
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* Netivot Shalom 168:7:6 writes that the Teshuvat Ri doesn't imply like the Derisha at all. Netivot Shalom 168:7:6 reads the Bet Yosef in accordance with the Derisha. However, the Chelkat Binyamin (168 Tziyunim 136) argues that the Bet Yosef held like the Shach.</ref> Sephardim are more strict and only allow this completely after the fact that the interest was collected.<ref>Horah Brurah 168:31. There he mentions the idea that the Bet Yosef suggests which is if the lender doesn't know from witnesses that the borrower appointed the non-Jew to be his agent and the borrower himself since he didn't appoint the non-Jew then the lender could collect the interest. Horah Brurah concludes that one may only rely upon this after the fact.</ref> | * Netivot Shalom 168:7:6 writes that the Teshuvat Ri doesn't imply like the Derisha at all. Netivot Shalom 168:7:6 reads the Bet Yosef in accordance with the Derisha. However, the Chelkat Binyamin (168 Tziyunim 136) argues that the Bet Yosef held like the Shach.</ref> Sephardim are more strict and only allow this completely after the fact that the interest was collected.<ref>Horah Brurah 168:31. There he mentions the idea that the Bet Yosef suggests which is if the lender doesn't know from witnesses that the borrower appointed the non-Jew to be his agent and the borrower himself since he didn't appoint the non-Jew then the lender could collect the interest. Horah Brurah concludes that one may only rely upon this after the fact.</ref> | ||
# If a Jew told a non-Jew to borrow for him from another non-Jew with interest and he went and borrowed from a Jew with interest the borrower can even pay the interest.<ref>Mordechai b"m 337, Shulchan Aruch Y.D. 168:8. Shach 168:19 and Taz 168:9 argue that just like the lender can collect the interest the borrower can pay it. However, it appears from the Bet Yosef that only the lender can collect it but it is forbidden for the lender to collect it. Horah Brurah 168:34 follows the Shach and Taz that if the non-Jew didn't follow the orders of the borrower it is then permitted for both the lender and borrower to exchange the interest at the end.</ref> | # If a Jew told a non-Jew to borrow for him from another non-Jew with interest and he went and borrowed from a Jew with interest the borrower can even pay the interest.<ref>Mordechai b"m 337, Shulchan Aruch Y.D. 168:8. Shach 168:19 and Taz 168:9 argue that just like the lender can collect the interest the borrower can pay it. However, it appears from the Bet Yosef that only the lender can collect it but it is forbidden for the lender to collect it. Horah Brurah 168:34 follows the Shach and Taz that if the non-Jew didn't follow the orders of the borrower it is then permitted for both the lender and borrower to exchange the interest at the end.</ref> | ||
===Non-Jew borrowing with Interest from a Jew through a Jewish Agent=== | |||
# If a non-Jew asks a Jew to borrow for him from another Jew with interest the Jewish agent may do his job as long as he says clearly that he is borrowing with interest on behalf of a non-Jew or the transaction is happening in the presence of the non-Jew.<ref>Ran b"m 71b s.v. mahu, Nemukei Yosef 42a, Hagaot Ashri 5:42, Rosh responsa 108:5, Raavan 103, and Smak 260 all cited by Bet Yosef 168:13. Baal Hatrumot 46:4:10 citing Ramban b"m 71b s.v. vgoy explains that even though the Jewish agent can't halachically become the agent of the non-Jew since there's no agency for non-Jews, the Jewish agent can be the agent of the lender.</ref> | |||
===Lending with Interest with a Non-Jewish Agent using a Security Deposit=== | ===Lending with Interest with a Non-Jewish Agent using a Security Deposit=== | ||
# Some permit borrowing from a non-Jew with a security deposit so that they can in turn borrow with interest from another Jew with that security deposit. This is permitted since the non-Jew takes responsibility for the original loan and it is treated as two loans and not one. Ashkenazim can rely on this opinion.<ref>Ri cited by Rosh b"m 5:55, Rosh responsa 108:11, Rama 168:8 seems to support this approach. Darkei Moshe 168:4 quotes the Mordechai and Hagahot Ashri who held that it is permitted even initially. Darkei Moshe 168:9 cites the Kol Bo 84 and Hagahot Maimoniyot Malveh 5:3 who says that the minhag was like the Ri</ref> Others hold that generally this is forbidden to arrange but if one explicitly tells the non-Jew that he has responsibility for the loan then it is permitted.<ref>Ramban b"m 71b s.v. vbar cited by Tur 168:9, Rashba 7:321, Nemukei Yosef 42a, Talmidei Harashba, and Baal Hatrumot 46:4:10 cited by Bet Yosef 168:9</ref> | # Some permit borrowing from a non-Jew with a security deposit so that they can in turn borrow with interest from another Jew with that security deposit. This is permitted since the non-Jew takes responsibility for the original loan and it is treated as two loans and not one. Ashkenazim can rely on this opinion.<ref>Ri cited by Rosh b"m 5:55, Rosh responsa 108:11, Rama 168:8 seems to support this approach. Darkei Moshe 168:4 quotes the Mordechai and Hagahot Ashri who held that it is permitted even initially. Darkei Moshe 168:9 cites the Kol Bo 84 and Hagahot Maimoniyot Malveh 5:3 who says that the minhag was like the Ri</ref> Others hold that generally this is forbidden to arrange but if one explicitly tells the non-Jew that he has responsibility for the loan then it is permitted.<ref>Ramban b"m 71b s.v. vbar cited by Tur 168:9, Rashba 7:321, Nemukei Yosef 42a, Talmidei Harashba, and Baal Hatrumot 46:4:10 cited by Bet Yosef 168:9</ref> | ||
# Even according to the strict opinion, a lender to a non-Jew with interest who collected a deposit from him which came originally from a Jew can collect the interest as long as he isn't certain that it was arranged improperly.<ref>Ri, Rosh, Shulchan Aruch 168:9</ref> Some say that he may not collect the interest if he knew that it was a Jewish security deposit such as if it is a Jewish article of clothing.<ref>Tur 189:9, Shulchan Aruch 168:9. Bet Yosef 168:9 s.v. yisrael shnatan notes that the Mordechai 338 held within the opinion of Rabbenu Tam that it doesn't matter whether the deposit was clearly Jewish or not.</ref> | # Even according to the strict opinion, a lender to a non-Jew with interest who collected a deposit from him which came originally from a Jew can collect the interest as long as he isn't certain that it was arranged improperly.<ref>Ri, Rosh, Shulchan Aruch 168:9</ref> Some say that he may not collect the interest if he knew that it was a Jewish security deposit such as if it is a Jewish article of clothing.<ref>Tur 189:9, Shulchan Aruch 168:9. Bet Yosef 168:9 s.v. yisrael shnatan notes that the Mordechai 338 held within the opinion of Rabbenu Tam that it doesn't matter whether the deposit was clearly Jewish or not.</ref> | ||
# If the original Jew wants to get his security deposit back from the other Jew who lent to the non-Jew and the non-Jew isn't cooperating, the lender Jew doesn't need to work with the borrower Jew since they didn't have any transaction one to another.<ref>Rosh responsa 108:8</ref> | # If the original Jew wants to get his security deposit back from the other Jew who lent to the non-Jew and the non-Jew isn't cooperating, the lender Jew doesn't need to work with the borrower Jew since they didn't have any transaction one to another.<ref>Rosh responsa 108:8, Rama 168:9</ref> | ||
# If a Jew has a security deposit of a non-Jew in his hands and the non-Jew direct him to use it to borrow from another Jew with interest on his behalf, the first Jew may do so.<ref>Mordechai 337 writes that a Jew can use a non-Jew's security deposit to borrow from a Jew with interest if he is instructed so by the non-Jew. The Mordechai seems to apply this even to the case where the Jew didn't have the non-Jew's deposit but instead wanted to gift him a deposit of his own for its value. The Bet Yosef is troubled by this leniency since there's no mechanism by which the non-Jew is actually acquiring the deposit. Taz 168:14 gives a nuanced explanation that it was sold to the second Jew with a condition that the non-Jew could buy it back. Bach 168:13 and Nekudat Hakesef 168:11 explain that once a owner admits to the fact someone else owns his item it halachically belongs to that person (''kinyan odita'') and that is sufficient to remove the prohibition of ribbit. Either way, the Rama 169:11 concludes that we assume that it is impossible to gift a deposit to a non-Jew without him making a physical [[kinyan]] such as meshicha.</ref> | |||
====Non-Jew Selling Jewish Debt==== | ====Non-Jew Selling Jewish Debt==== | ||
#If a Jew owed a non-Jew capital and interest, that non-Jew can sell that debt to another Jew. If the non-Jew collects the interest it is permitted for the Jew to accept it, yet if he doesn't then the second Jew shouldn't collect the interest from the first Jew.<ref>Rashba responsa 1:764 cited by Darkei Moshe 168:6</ref> | #If a Jew owed a non-Jew capital and interest, that non-Jew can sell that debt to another Jew. If the non-Jew collects the interest it is permitted for the Jew to accept it, yet if he doesn't then the second Jew shouldn't collect the interest from the first Jew.<ref>Rashba responsa 1:764 cited by Darkei Moshe 168:6</ref> | ||
