Interest with Non-Jews: Difference between revisions

===Lending with Interest from a Non-Jew with a Jewish Agent using a Security Deposit===

#Some permit borrowing from a non-Jew with a security deposit so that they can in turn borrow with interest from another Jew with that security deposit. This is permitted since the non-Jew takes responsibility for the original loan and it is treated as two loans and not one. Ashkenazim can rely on this opinion.<ref>Ri cited by Rosh b"m 5:55, Rosh responsa 108:11, Rama 168:8 seems to support this approach. Darkei Moshe 168:4 quotes the Mordechai and Hagahot Ashri who held that it is permitted even initially. Darkei Moshe 168:9 cites the Kol Bo 84 and Hagahot Maimoniyot Malveh 5:3 who says that the minhag was like the Ri</ref> Others hold that generally this is forbidden to arrange but if one explicitly tells the non-Jew that he has responsibility for the loan then it is permitted.<ref>Ramban b"m 71b s.v. vbar cited by Tur 168:9, Rashba 7:321, Nemukei Yosef 42a, Talmidei Harashba, and Baal Hatrumot 46:4:10 s.v. vkatav alav haramban cited by Bet Yosef 168:9</ref> The Jewish borrower must make sure that the security deposit that he gave to the non-Jew was given completely such that the non-Jew could acquire it with a proper [[kinyan]].<ref>Shach 168:20 writes that one needs to make sure that the non-Jew acquired the collateral with a kinyan such as meshicha, pulling it. Chelkat Binyamin 168:63 and 65 explains that there's two approaches for the case of a Jew who borrowed from a non-Jew who in turn borrows from a Jew when there's a collateral. The Gra and Levush say that the collateral doesn't add or detract anything, it all depends on whether the non-Jew was an agent of the original Jew in which case it is forbidden and if not it is permitted. The Shach, Taz, and Chavot Daat 168:12 however, hold that the collateral of the Jew can serve as a Arev Kablan, guarantor for the non-Jew from the original Jew and that is a problem. Another words, since the original Jew's property is held responsible for the interest loan of a non-Jew to the second Jew, it is as though the original Jew is the guarantor of that interest loan. In Shulchan Aruch Y.D. 170:2 it is codified that a Jew may not be a guarantor of a non-Jew's interest loan from a Jew. Therefore, the way to solve that issue is by having the original Jew completely allow the non-Jew to acquire the collateral and his transactions with it afterwards are separate from him. (See Talmidei Harashba cited by Bet Yosef 168:9 who is unconcerned for the collateral being a guarantor since it is considered a Arev Stam.)</ref>

#Even according to the strict opinion, a lender to a non-Jew with interest who collected a deposit from him which came originally from a Jew can collect the interest as long as he isn't certain that it was arranged improperly.<ref>Ri, Rosh, Shulchan Aruch 168:9. Chelkat Binyamin 168:63 explains that essentially there's two schools of thought regarding a loan with a security deposit from one Jew to another Jew with a non-Jew in between. The Gra and Levush understand that this depends on whether one may set up a non-Jew agent between two Jews who are transacting with interest. The Shach, Taz 168:14, and Chavot Daat 168:12, on the other hand, think that the security deposit poses its own problem in that it functionally creates a lien of the Jewish lender upon the original borrower Jew. This could be solved if the non-Jew acquired the deposit from the non-Jew in an absolute fashion.</ref> Some say that he may not collect the interest if he knew that it was a Jewish security deposit such as if it is a Jewish article of clothing.<ref>Tur 189:9, Shulchan Aruch 168:9. Bet Yosef 168:9 s.v. yisrael shnatan notes that the Mordechai 338 held within the opinion of Rabbenu Tam that it doesn't matter whether the deposit was clearly Jewish or not.</ref>

#If the original Jew wants to get his security deposit back from the other Jew who lent to the non-Jew and the non-Jew isn't cooperating, the lender Jew doesn't need to work with the borrower Jew since they didn't have any transaction one to another.<ref>Rosh responsa 108:8, Rama 168:9</ref>

#If a Jew has a security deposit of a non-Jew in his hands and the non-Jew directs him to use it to borrow from another Jew with interest on his behalf, the first Jew may do so.<ref>Mordechai 337 writes that a Jew can use a non-Jew's security deposit to borrow from a Jew with interest if he is instructed so by the non-Jew. The Mordechai seems to apply this even to the case where the Jew didn't have the non-Jew's deposit but instead wanted to gift him a deposit of his own for its value. The Bet Yosef is troubled by this leniency since there's no mechanism by which the non-Jew is actually acquiring the deposit. Taz 168:14 gives a nuanced explanation that it was sold to the second Jew with a condition that the non-Jew could buy it back. Bach 168:13 and Nekudat Hakesef 168:11 explain that once a owner admits to the fact someone else owns his item it halachically belongs to that person (''kinyan odita'') and that is sufficient to remove the prohibition of ribbit. Either way, the Rama 169:11 concludes that we assume that it is impossible to gift a deposit to a non-Jew without him making a physical [[kinyan]] such as meshicha.</ref>

#If a non-Jew took a security deposit from a Jew forcibly and then used it to borrow with interest from another Jew, that second jew may collect interest from the non-Jew but may not collect interest from the first Jew.<ref>Smak 260, Kol Bo 84, Mordechai 338 citing Riva, Baal Hatrumot 46:4:10 all quoted by the Bet Yosef 168:10</ref> Some disagree and allow collecting the interest.<ref>Rosh cited by Tur 168:10</ref>

##If the force and responsibility of the loan rests upon the non-Jew besides for the security deposit then it is permitted to collect the interest from the first Jew.<ref>Bet Yosef 168:10 based on the Baal Hatrumot</ref>

##Additionally, if the first Jew didn't know that his security deposit was going to be used to borrow from a Jew with interest it isn't any question of interest for him to pay the second Jew the interest to redeem his item.<ref>Maharik 16 cited by Bet Yosef 168:10</ref>

#If a Jew borrowed from a non-Jew with interest and gave him a security deposit. If the non-Jew takes that deposit and uses it to borrow from another Jew with interest some say that one may not take interest from that transaction, while others say that one can. Generally we are lenient except in the following two circumstances:<ref>Shulchan Aruch 168:10, 20</ref>  

#If a Jew owed a non-Jew capital and interest, that non-Jew can sell that debt to another Jew. If the non-Jew collects the interest it is permitted for the Jew to accept it from the non-Jew. If the non-Jew was never paid by the Jewish borrowed, second Jew who bought this debt shouldn't collect the interest from the first Jew.<ref>Rashba responsa 1:764 cited by Darkei Moshe 168:6, Bedek Habayit 168:27, Rama 168:10 and Knesset Hagedola (Bet Yosef 168:44).</ref>

# It isn't considered actual interest if the non-Jew merely transfers the collection of the loan to a Jew, however, if he actually sells it to him then it is considered as he is the new lender and it is actual interest to collect it.<ref>Taz 168:12. See Darkei Teshuva 168:38 who discusses whether this would constitute a biblical or rabbinic prohibition. Nekudat Hakesef (on Taz 168:12) argues that if the transaction is only effective in non-Jewish law and not in halacha, it isn't a problem of interest. Chelkat Binyamin 66:10 s.v. vhaakum p. 313 questions this Shach based on CM 66:25 that clearly implies that any acquisition of a debt that is recognized by non-Jewish law is also accepted by Jewish law.</ref>

# It is only problematic for a Jew to buy the Jewish debt from the non-Jew if the interest didn't yet accrue. However, if the interest already accrued and the Jewish borrower owes the non-Jew all of the capital and interest, the non-Jew can sell to the second Jew this loan to collect since it is a sale and not an interest loan at this point.<ref>Taz 168:12. Even though the Nekudat Hakesef on Taz 168:12 is strict, the Chelkat Binyamin 168:93 writes that one can be lenient on this question.</ref>

===Non-Jew Selling Non-Jew's Debt===

#A Jew lent a non-Jew with interest upon a security deposit of the non-Jew. Then the non-Jew sold the security deposit to another Jew and he was told to pay the debt to the first Jew and collect the security deposit. This transaction is totally permitted since the loan was made between the Jew and non-Jew and then there was a sale of the non-Jewish debt to a Jew.<ref>Rosh responsa 108:25, Shulchan Aruch 168:12</ref>

#However, if the Jew who bought the debt, didn't pay off the debt immediately in order to redeem the deposit and only paid it after some time, thereby accruing a further interest charge upon the non-Jewish lender, the Jew lender may force the non-Jew to pay that interest charge even if the non-Jew in turn will force the Jewish buyer to pay him for that interest charge. But the Jewish buyer may not pay the interest to the Jewish lender because that would paying interest.<ref>Rosh responsa 108:25, Shulchan Aruch 168:12</ref>

===Jew Selling Non-Jew's Debt===

#If one Jew lent money to a non-Jew with interest he can then sell that loan to another Jew. He should stipulate that this is a complete sale of the loan and they will no longer have any claims upon each other. Thereby the buyer becomes the new lender to the non-Jew and can collect interest.<ref>Shulchan Aruch 168:18. When there is no security deposit, the Shach 168:62 explains that the mechanism isn't exactly a sale since one can't really sell the debt to another Jew. Rather one is forgiving the non-Jew from paying him back. Then the non-Jew can pay the second Jew as he is "considered" according to their intention to be the new lender. In Shach 168:63 he clarifies that he doesn't need to inform the non-Jew of that which he forgave. Netivot Shalom 168:18:9 explains that even though the non-Jew will be paying the second Jew in error he can collect it. Shach 168:63 is in disagreement with the Bach who thinks that it is necessary to alert the non-Jew. See Chavot Daat 168:41 who endorses another approach; he explains that this transaction is a sale with respect to non-Jews and purely forgiving a loan with respect to Jews. Therefore, he concludes that the first Jew may not go and reacquire the loan from the non-Jew that he forgave. However, it seems Chelkat Binyamin p. 313 would challenge this from C.M. 66:25.</ref> When there is a security deposit from the non-Jew that would have to be transferred to the second Jew with the same stipulation that it is a complete sale and they have no claims upon each other.<ref>Shulchan Aruch Y.D. 168:18</ref> According to Ashkenazim it isn't necessary to make such a clear stipulation since it is assumed that this is the stipulation.<ref>Rama 168:18 following the Mordechai and Rosh teshuva</ref>

#A Jew who lent to a non-Jew with interest can sell the non-Jew's loan from a certain date going forward. The first Jew would collect the interest until that date and the second from that date and on.<ref>Tur 168:18</ref>

#A Jew who lent a non-Jew for a certain percent he can sell that loan at a lower percent. For example, if the first Jew lent a non-Jew $100 for 10% a year and then resold that debt to another Jew for 5% a year.<ref>Rama 168:18, Chelkat Binyamin 168:204</ref>

#A Jew who lent a non-Jew money for interest can then resell it to a Jew but he may not sell a portion of that loan to a Jew.<ref>Shach (Nekudat Hakesef on Taz 168:28) and Derisha 168:16</ref> Others allow even selling a portion of it.<ref>Taz 168:18, Chavot Daat Chidushim 168:53. This is also the implication of the Trumat Hadeshen 303, Bet Yosef 168:18 s.v. vkatuv, and Darkei Moshe 168:16. Chelkat Binyamin 168:204 cites both opinions.</ref>

#A Jew who lent a non-Jew money for interest can't stipulate the buyer resell it to him.<ref>Although the Rama 168:18 is lenient, both the Shach 168:57 and Taz 168:27 disagree.</ref>

#A Jew who lent a non-Jew money for interest can sell that debt to a Jew but can't stipulate that he'll sell that debt if the Jew also gives him an additional interest free loan.<ref>The Taz 168:24 in disagreeing with the Levush forbids this. Shach in Nekudat Hakesef and Chachmat Adam cited by Chelkat Binyamin 168:151 are lenient. Netivot Shalom 168:18:14:1 questions the Shach from Shulchan Aruch 166:3 and answers it. Chavot Daat 168:34 forbids because of Shulchan Aruch 160:23 and 172:4. Chelkat Binyamin thinks that even the Shach accepts part of the argument of the Chavot Daat and would forbid anytime that sale of the debt is at a lower price because of the fact that he is also receiving an interest free loan.</ref>

#The Jew can resell the non-Jew's debt for a lower interest rate than the non-Jew is giving him.<ref>Rama 168:18</ref>

#It is permitted for the buyer of the debt to leave the non-Jew's security deposit in the hands of the original Jewish lender.<ref>Rama 168:18 clarifies that it is sufficient for the sale of the loan to be effective when the buyer pays for the loan even if he isn't transferred the loan document or the collateral and doesn't do another kinyan. It is evident in the Darkei Moshe 168:17 and Chavot Daat 168:37 that selling a non-Jew's debt is ineffective with merely paying for the debt, the loan document physically needs to be transferred. However, when a collateral is involved it is sufficient to pay for it. Chelkat Binyamin 168:214 clarifies that one should be explicit that one is selling the collateral wherever it is. Ideally, the Rama concludes, one should use a kinyan to sell the collateral and not rely on the payment alone. The Chelkat Binyamin 168:215 explains that meshicha or sudar are good forms of kinyan.</ref> The responsibility of the security deposit is now upon the second Jew but if they stipulated that the first Jew would have responsibility then he does.<ref>Bet Yosef 168:18 s.v. vkatuv, Rama 168:18, Chavot Daat 168:37. Shach 168:58 notes that in such a case it is necessary to do a formal sale of the loan in order for him to leave the security deposit with the first Jew. </ref>

#It is forbidden to say that one wants to borrow from another Jew with interest on or in exchange for a non-Jew’s collateral which was given to the first Jew because of an interest loan,<ref>Rosh responsa 108:28 writes that if a Jew who lent to a non-Jew with interest asks another Jew to lend him money with interest on the collateral he received from the non-Jew that is considered taking interest. Tur and Shulchan Aruch Y.D. 168:19 codify the Rosh. What exactly is the issue with this formulation? The Shach 168:64 contends that as long as one says that one wants to borrow from another Jew with interest on a non-Jewish collateral we can’t reinterepert his words and since he said he wanted to borrow with interest that is how we view his transaction. However, if he wouldn’t explain the transaction at all, we would explain him to mean that he intended to buy it since we’d prefer to say he did something permitted. Chelkat Binyamin 168:236 sides with the Shach. He explains that there’s a fundamental difference between a sale and a loan. A sale is where the first Jew is completely removed from any dealings with the non-Jew and if he collects anything from the non-Jew he must give it to the second Jew. A loan is where the first Jew must pay the second Jew whether or not the non-Jew will pay. The Bach 168:26 disagrees and explains that there is a minhag to be lenient even if one says that one intends to borrow because we reinterpret it to mean to buy. Taz 168:28 seems to agree. The Bet Yosef and Taz imply that the reason for the Rosh isn’t because of his incriminating words but rather because of his motivation. If the Jewish lender would have borrowed on that collateral for the benefit of the non-Jew it wouldn’t be considered a Jewish loan. However, as long as the motivation is for the needs of the Jew we understand that transaction between the two Jews to be a loan and not a sale.</ref> in whatever way the collateral is transferred to the second Jew.<Ref>Shach 168:64 concludes that this issue of stating that one wants to borrow from a Jew with interest on the collateral of a non-Jew is only a problem if the first Jew owes the non-Jew's collateral such as if the non-Jew stated that it was his retroactively from the time of the loan if it goes unpaid, however, if he doesn't have that ownership and he transfers the collateral to the other Jew it is permitted. Chavot Daat 168:41 and Rabbi Akiva Eiger on Shach 168:64 disagree. Chelkat Binyamin Biurim 168:19 s.v. vamar p. 367 answers their question.</ref>