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Kiddush: Difference between revisions
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##However, according to Ashkenazim as long as one davenned any of the [[Shabbat]] [[prayers]], if one needs to make Kiddush during [[Bein HaShemashot]], it should be done without Shem Umalchut.<ref>Ben Ish Chai Bereshit 19 writes that one could argue that according to the Magen Avraham (271:1), once one prayed on [[Shabbat]] the obligation of [[Kiddish|Kiddush]] is only Derabbanan and whenever there is a doubt about a Derabbanan obligation one may be lenient (Safek Derabbanan Lekula). If this was the case, one should say that if it is [[Bein HaShemashot]] one no longer needs to say Kiddush. However, the Ben Ish Chai rejects such an argument because some commentators limit the Magen Avraham to a case where one doesn't have wine or one specifically had Kavana in [[davening]] to fulfill one's obligation. Therefore, the Ben Ish Chai rules that one can still make [[Kiddish|Kiddush]] during [[Bein HaShemashot]] with a Bracha because of the rule Safek Deoraitah LeChumra, just like if there's a doubt concerning [[Birkat HaMazon]]. Halichot Olam (vol 3, pg 25-7) agrees. However, the Mishna Brurah 271:39 (Shaar Hatziyun 47) rules that if one did say Tefillot [[Shabbat]] and it's [[Bein HaShemashot]], one should make the bracha without [[Shem UMalchut]]. See [http://www.dailyhalacha.com/Display.asp?ClipID=1866 Rabbi Mansour on Dailyhalacha.com]. </ref> | ##However, according to Ashkenazim as long as one davenned any of the [[Shabbat]] [[prayers]], if one needs to make Kiddush during [[Bein HaShemashot]], it should be done without Shem Umalchut.<ref>Ben Ish Chai Bereshit 19 writes that one could argue that according to the Magen Avraham (271:1), once one prayed on [[Shabbat]] the obligation of [[Kiddish|Kiddush]] is only Derabbanan and whenever there is a doubt about a Derabbanan obligation one may be lenient (Safek Derabbanan Lekula). If this was the case, one should say that if it is [[Bein HaShemashot]] one no longer needs to say Kiddush. However, the Ben Ish Chai rejects such an argument because some commentators limit the Magen Avraham to a case where one doesn't have wine or one specifically had Kavana in [[davening]] to fulfill one's obligation. Therefore, the Ben Ish Chai rules that one can still make [[Kiddish|Kiddush]] during [[Bein HaShemashot]] with a Bracha because of the rule Safek Deoraitah LeChumra, just like if there's a doubt concerning [[Birkat HaMazon]]. Halichot Olam (vol 3, pg 25-7) agrees. However, the Mishna Brurah 271:39 (Shaar Hatziyun 47) rules that if one did say Tefillot [[Shabbat]] and it's [[Bein HaShemashot]], one should make the bracha without [[Shem UMalchut]]. See [http://www.dailyhalacha.com/Display.asp?ClipID=1866 Rabbi Mansour on Dailyhalacha.com]. </ref> | ||
==Washing | ==Washing Before or After Kiddush== | ||
#One should make [[Kiddish|kiddush]] before washing for bread. However | #One should make [[Kiddish|kiddush]] before washing for bread. | ||
*Kaf HaChaim 271:76 adds that the Arizal (Shaar Kavanot 71c) agrees because the order should be kept as [[Kiddish]] being the completion of [[prayer]] and washing as the start of the meal. Gra 271:12, Maamer Mordechai 271:16, and Yalkut Yosef ([[Shabbat]] vol 1 pg 273) concur with Shulchan Aruch. Therefore, Sephardim shouldn't change from the ruling of Shulchan Aruch even Bedieved. However, the Kaf HaChaim 271:77 argues that Bedieved one should say [[Kiddish]] on wine because one has what to rely on.</ref> According to Ashkenazim, Bedieved one can make still make | ##However, if one washed by accident with a bracha before making [[Kiddish|kiddush]], then according to Sephardim, one should now make [[Kiddish|kiddush]] on bread and not on wine.<ref>*Tur 271:12 quotes Rav Amram Goan (Siddur vol 2, [[Siman 17]]) who wrote that one should make [[Kiddish|Kiddush]] on wine and then wash for bread. However, if one washed first, one should make [[Kiddish|Kiddush]] on bread in accordance with Rav Bruna in Pesachim 106b ("הנוטל ידיו לא יקדש"). Rambam (Hilchot [[Shabbat]] 29:9-10) and the Ran in explaining the Rif (22a) concur. The Maharam MeRotenburg (quoted by the Tur 271:12) also had the practice to make Kiddush before washing. Shulchan Aruch 271:12 rules that one should make Kiddush and then wash; however, if one washed first, then one should make Kiddush on the bread. | ||
*Kaf HaChaim 271:76 adds that the Arizal (Shaar Kavanot 71c) agrees because the order should be kept as [[Kiddish|Kiddush]] being the completion of [[prayer]] and washing as the start of the meal. Gra 271:12, Maamer Mordechai 271:16, and Yalkut Yosef ([[Shabbat]] vol 1 pg 273) concur with Shulchan Aruch. Therefore, Sephardim shouldn't change from the ruling of Shulchan Aruch even Bedieved. However, the Kaf HaChaim 271:77 argues that Bedieved one should say [[Kiddish|Kiddush]] on wine because one has what to rely on.</ref> However, if one person in the group hasn't yet washed and can perform [[Kiddish|kiddush]] over wine for everyone else (by saying it aloud while they listen), this is preferred.<ref>Menuchat Ahava (vol 1 pg 143) [http://www.dailyhalacha.com/Display.asp?PageIndex=9&ClipID=960 see dailyhalacha] </ref> | |||
##According to Ashkenazim, Bedieved if one washed first, one can make still make [[Kiddish|kiddush]] on wine and then have the bread.<ref>The Rashbam (Pesachim 106b), and Baal HaMoar (Pesachim 21b s.v. Amar Rav Bruna) explain the gemara differently than the Rambam/Ran. Rav Bruna in the gemara holds that if one washed then they can't say kiddush since that would be a hefsek between washing and hamotzi. However, the gemara (according to them) rejects Rav Bruna, and therefore we do not view the kiddush as a hefsek between washing and hamotzi that would be me'akev. Nonetheless, one should ideally not wash before kiddush, because of a different gemara (Brachot 51b) in which Beit Hillel holds that one should first pour the wine and then wash for hamotzi (״מוזגין ואחר כך נוטלין״). According to the Rashbam, then, it comes out that one should lechatchila make kiddush first, but bdieved if one washed first then they can still make kiddush on wine. | |||
==Eating in the Place One Made | Rabbenu Tam (Pesachim 106b s.v. Mekadesh) and the Ri (Pesachim 106b s.v. Zimnin) hold that even Lechatchila one can wash before making [[Kiddish|Kiddush]] on wine. They explain the gemara in brachot 51b to be limited to pouring wine during the week, since that is a big hefsek, but merely making kiddush is not such a hefsek and so can be done after washing before saying hamotzi. Hagahot Maimon 29:100, Sh"t Rashba 1:752, Rokeach (115), and Mordechai (Pesachim 106b; pg 37c) side with Rabbenu Tam and Ri. Such was the minhag of the Rosh (quoted by Tur 271:12) and the minhag of Ashkenaz as writes the Rama 271:12. However, the Beit Yosef points out that it is difficult to understand why someone would specifically wash before kiddush, as even according to Rabbenu Tam it is not preferable to wash first, but merely permitted. The Taz 271:14 and Chaye Adam ([[Shabbat]] 6:12) rule that the Rama is only bedieved. Therefore, Mishna Brurah 271:62 writes that since many achronim side with Shulchan Aruch and one satisfies all opinions that way, one should make [[Kiddish|Kiddush]] first. However, Bedieved one can rely on the Rama to still make [[Kiddish|Kiddush]] on wine if one did in fact wash first. Kaf HaChaim 271:77 adds in the name of the Bach that if one didn't make the bracha on [[Netilat yadayim]] one should make [[Kiddish|Kiddush]] on wine and then rewash so that one doesn't loose the [[Kiddish|Kiddush]] over wine. </ref> | ||
#Some Ashkenazim (specifically German Jews) have the Minhag to wash before making [[Kiddish|kiddush]] over wine, and they have what to rely on.<ref>See previous note. As noted there, this was the practice of the Rosh based on Rabbenu Tam's reading of the various gemaras. Rama O.C. 271:12 writes that such was the absolutely overwhelming Ashkenazi minhag to wash before [[Kiddish]]. Darkei Moshe 271:11 in fact says that he never saw anyone who made kiddush before they washed. The Bet Yosef 271:12 comments that he saw some Sephardim who also had such a practice, but he sternly disagreed based on the Rif and Rambam. | |||
Given that making kiddush satisfies the shitot of all the rishonim, and washing first is only permitted according to Rabbenu Tam, what is the logic of this minhag? The Mishna Brurah (271:61) suggests that since if one makes kiddush on bread they would have to wash first, in order to be consistent the minhag developed to always just wash before kiddush, even when making it on wine. The Eliyah Rabah (s.k. 27) suggests that perhaps the minhag developed because people were concerned that their hands were not properly clean to be able to make kiddush (one shouldn't say shem Hashem with dirty hands), and so they would wash before. </ref> | |||
##If one has this minhag, it is still forbidden to dilute the wine (by adding water) between washing and [[Kiddish|kiddush]], as that would constitute an interruption between washing and the meal. | |||
##Some say that one also shouldn't pour the wine between washing and the meal, as this too constitutes an interruption.<ref>Magen Avraham 271:27 writes that even Rabbenu Tam (Pesachim 106 s.v. Mekadesh) who holds that Lechatchila one can wash before [[Kiddish|Kiddush]], agrees that one cannot dilute the wine after washing. This is based on Bet Hillel ([[Brachot]] 51b) who says that one should make [[Kiddish|Kiddush]] first in the case where one has to dilute the wine, because diluting wine takes precision and is definitely an interruption between washing and hamotzi. Magen Avraham adds that according to the stringent opinion in Shulchan Aruch 166:1 (which is the Tur based on the Yerushalmi) one should be strict not to make any interruption. The Magen Avraham is brought as halacha by the Tosfet [[Shabbat]] 271:34 and Kaf HaChaim 271:78. </ref> | |||
#Some distinguish with respect to the above question between the one making [[Kiddish|kiddush]], who should not wash before, and other members of the family, who may. Others say that there is no difference.<ref>Magen Avraham 271:26 in name of Hagahot Mordechai (it seems that he means Mordechai pg 37b), Bach 271:11 (s.v. VeleInyan) distinguish between the one making [[Kiddish|Kiddush]] (who should not wash before) and the other members of the family (who may wash before, since they aren't saying kiddush and there is thus no hefsek). Mishna Brurah (271:58) cites this as well. Kaf HaChaim 271:79 argues that there's no difference between the one making [[Kiddish|Kiddush]] and the other family members. </ref> | |||
==Eating in the Place One Made Kiddush== | |||
#In the place where one made [[Kiddish|kiddush]] one should make sure to have a meal there. This principle is called by chazal ''Kiddush Bimakom Seuda''.<ref>Shmuel in Gemara Pesachim 101a says that one should only say Kiddush in the place where one is going to have a meal. The Rosh (Pesachim 10:5) says that this is based on the pasuk "VeKarata LeShabbat Oneg" (Yishayahu 58:13) which Chazal explain with "Kriyah" as a reference to Kiddush and "Oneg" to the meal and so the pasuk means, in the place of Oneg one should have Kriyah. Shulchan Aruch O.C. 273:4 and Kitzur Shulchan Aruch 77:14 codify this as the halacha.</ref> This applies both for the nighttime and daytime Kiddush.<ref>Kitzur Shulchan Aruch 77:14</ref> | #In the place where one made [[Kiddish|kiddush]] one should make sure to have a meal there. This principle is called by chazal ''Kiddush Bimakom Seuda''.<ref>Shmuel in Gemara Pesachim 101a says that one should only say Kiddush in the place where one is going to have a meal. The Rosh (Pesachim 10:5) says that this is based on the pasuk "VeKarata LeShabbat Oneg" (Yishayahu 58:13) which Chazal explain with "Kriyah" as a reference to Kiddush and "Oneg" to the meal and so the pasuk means, in the place of Oneg one should have Kriyah. Shulchan Aruch O.C. 273:4 and Kitzur Shulchan Aruch 77:14 codify this as the halacha.</ref> This applies both for the nighttime and daytime Kiddush.<ref>Kitzur Shulchan Aruch 77:14</ref> | ||
