Socializing with Non-Jews: Difference between revisions
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===What Drinks Are Included=== | ===What Drinks Are Included=== | ||
# "Sheichar" in the times of the Talmud referred primarily to date beer, but the general position of the Rishonim is that it applies to grain based beer, as well. Some are lenient and that seems to have been the custom in Ashkenaz, so Ashkenazim can rely on the Mordechai and Rama who hold that it is specifically date beer.<ref>Tosafot Avodah Zarah 31b s.v. utravayhu, Mordechai Avodah Zarah 819, Rama Yoreh Deah 114:1, Bach Yoreh Deah 114 who recommends being strict not to have any beer with non-Jews. Zivchei Tzedek 114:1, Kaf HaChaim Yoreh Deah 114:1</ref> | # "Sheichar" in the times of the Talmud referred primarily to date beer, but the general position of the Rishonim is that it applies to grain based beer, as well. Some are lenient and that seems to have been the custom in Ashkenaz, so Ashkenazim can rely on the Mordechai and Rama who hold that it is specifically date beer.<ref>Tosafot Avodah Zarah 31b s.v. utravayhu, Mordechai Avodah Zarah 819, Rama Yoreh Deah 114:1, Bach Yoreh Deah 114 who recommends being strict not to have any beer with non-Jews. Zivchei Tzedek 114:1, Kaf HaChaim Yoreh Deah 114:1</ref> Sephardim are stringent.<ref>Shulchan Aruch Yoreh Deah 114:1, Zivchei Tzedek 114:8, Kaf HaChaim Yoreh Deah 114:11. See Darkei Teshvuah 114:5 for some further explanations of the Rama.</ref> | ||
# Similarly, a honey drink is included in the prohibition according to the strict opinion.<ref>Shulchan Aruch and Rama Yoreh Deah 114:1. See Pri Chadash Yoreh Deah 114:1 and Pri Toar 114:1 who debate whether or not this gezerah is static or dynamic, respectively. i.e. are the examples set in stone (according to the Pri Chadash) or is there room for the gezerah's reach to expand and include or exclude additional drinks depending on cultural norms (Pri Toar, according to [https://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/895256/rabbi-dovid-cohen-crc-/alcoholic-beverages-2-siman-114-sif-1b-drinking-in-a-non-jew-s-bar-or-home-source-of-the-prohibition-which-locations-which-beverages-/ Rav Dovid Cohen]’s interpretation). See Mizmor leDavid ad loc who argues that since the whole din is at most MiDeRabbanan and has some fundamental aspects as a "minhag," meaning it was never proscribed by Beit Din, there's a lot of room to employ the axiom of Safek DeRabbanan lekullah.</ref> | # Similarly, a honey drink is included in the prohibition according to the strict opinion.<ref>Shulchan Aruch and Rama Yoreh Deah 114:1. See Pri Chadash Yoreh Deah 114:1 and Pri Toar 114:1 who debate whether or not this gezerah is static or dynamic, respectively. i.e. are the examples set in stone (according to the Pri Chadash) or is there room for the gezerah's reach to expand and include or exclude additional drinks depending on cultural norms (Pri Toar, according to [https://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/895256/rabbi-dovid-cohen-crc-/alcoholic-beverages-2-siman-114-sif-1b-drinking-in-a-non-jew-s-bar-or-home-source-of-the-prohibition-which-locations-which-beverages-/ Rav Dovid Cohen]’s interpretation). See Mizmor leDavid ad loc who argues that since the whole din is at most MiDeRabbanan and has some fundamental aspects as a "minhag," meaning it was never proscribed by Beit Din, there's a lot of room to employ the axiom of Safek DeRabbanan lekullah.</ref> | ||
# Drinks that are uncommon are not included in this prohibition.<ref>Rambam Hilchot Maachalot Assurot 17:11 (Kesef Mishneh ad loc adds that they’re not called Sheichar), Tosafot Avodah Zarah 31b, Talmidei Rabbeinu Yonah, Rosh Avodah Zarah 2:16, Mordechai Avodah Zarah 819, Torat HaBayit 5:1, Tur and Shulchan Aruch Yoreh Deah 114:3</ref> According to some, anything not common in the times of Chazal can not be added later to the prohibition, even if it becomes more common.<ref>Pri Toar 114:3, Zivchei Tzedek 114:14, Kaf HaChaim Yoreh Deah 114:17</ref> | # Drinks that are uncommon are not included in this prohibition.<ref>Rambam Hilchot Maachalot Assurot 17:11 (Kesef Mishneh ad loc adds that they’re not called Sheichar), Tosafot Avodah Zarah 31b, Talmidei Rabbeinu Yonah, Rosh Avodah Zarah 2:16, Mordechai Avodah Zarah 819, Torat HaBayit 5:1, Tur and Shulchan Aruch Yoreh Deah 114:3</ref> According to some, anything not common in the times of Chazal can not be added later to the prohibition, even if it becomes more common.<ref>Pri Toar 114:3, Zivchei Tzedek 114:14, Kaf HaChaim Yoreh Deah 114:17</ref> | ||
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Darkei Teshuvah 114:2 and Kaf HaChaim Yoreh Deah 114:12 cite the aforementioned sources. Zivchei Tzedek 114:9 testifies that we assume like the Pri Chadash that it's not included and that the custom in Baghdad is to be lenient. The Pri Toar's point about parties is well taken, and it must be that the custom in Baghad is rooted in Darkei Shalom and preventing Eivah, as the coffeehouse is a venue of honoring one another. (Kaf HaChaim Yoreh Deah 114:14) Rav Hershel Schachter accepts the stringency of the Chochmat Adam but admits that if it is uncommon to socialize with strangers in coffee shops, there is room to be lenient.</ref> Yet, the majority of poskim are lenient and the minhag is to be lenient.<ref>According to the Rama 114:1 obviously it is permitted since it isn’t date beer. Furthermore, even according to Shulchan Aruch, the Pri Chadash 114:6 writes that coffee isn’t a beer at all and is obviously permitted. Furthermore, the coffee is nullified in the water like it is in hilchot brachot. Maharit cited by Pitchei Teshuva 114:1 agrees. Chelkat Binyamin 114:22 cites the Gra and Pri Chadash as holding coffee isn’t included in sechar akum unlike the stringency of the Chaye Adam who advises against it.</ref> | Darkei Teshuvah 114:2 and Kaf HaChaim Yoreh Deah 114:12 cite the aforementioned sources. Zivchei Tzedek 114:9 testifies that we assume like the Pri Chadash that it's not included and that the custom in Baghdad is to be lenient. The Pri Toar's point about parties is well taken, and it must be that the custom in Baghad is rooted in Darkei Shalom and preventing Eivah, as the coffeehouse is a venue of honoring one another. (Kaf HaChaim Yoreh Deah 114:14) Rav Hershel Schachter accepts the stringency of the Chochmat Adam but admits that if it is uncommon to socialize with strangers in coffee shops, there is room to be lenient.</ref> Yet, the majority of poskim are lenient and the minhag is to be lenient.<ref>According to the Rama 114:1 obviously it is permitted since it isn’t date beer. Furthermore, even according to Shulchan Aruch, the Pri Chadash 114:6 writes that coffee isn’t a beer at all and is obviously permitted. Furthermore, the coffee is nullified in the water like it is in hilchot brachot. Maharit cited by Pitchei Teshuva 114:1 agrees. Chelkat Binyamin 114:22 cites the Gra and Pri Chadash as holding coffee isn’t included in sechar akum unlike the stringency of the Chaye Adam who advises against it.</ref> | ||
# It should be noted that in a location where people are lax in their observance of the prohibition of Stam Yeynam, even sheichar is prohibited.<ref>The Gemara (Avodah Zarah 31b) tells how Rav Shmuel bar Bisna went to a place called Margoan and didn't drink their wine or their sheichar because of "shimtza" and "shimtza deshimtza." Rashi ad loc interprets Margoan as a place where Jews weren't so careful with Stem Yaynam and Shimtza as wine mixed in. The Ritva ad loc argues that it was a Non-Jewish place, and that they sent him a present. The Rif and Rosh omit this din altogether. Meanwhile, the Rashba writes like Rashi in Torat HaBayit HaAroch 5:1 and that it's a stringency that a Baal Nefesh should accept upon himself; however, in Torat HaBayit HaKatzar he writes that it's prohibited unequivocally. The Tur Yoreh Deah 114:2 only brings the Rashba's opinion from the Katzar (he didn't have the Aroch), and the Beit Yosef ad loc fills in the Aroch. See Perishah Yoreh Deah 114:2 and Bach Kuntres Acharon ad loc for a discussion regarding why the Tur chose to include a Halacha about Stam Yeynam here next to Sheichar Akum, since it's seemingly unrelated. Shach Yoreh Deah 114:4 cites both. In Shulchan Aruch Yoreh Deah 114:2 he copies the unequivocally prohibited articulation.</ref> | # It should be noted that in a location where people are lax in their observance of the prohibition of Stam Yeynam, even sheichar is prohibited.<ref>The Gemara (Avodah Zarah 31b) tells how Rav Shmuel bar Bisna went to a place called Margoan and didn't drink their wine or their sheichar because of "shimtza" and "shimtza deshimtza." Rashi ad loc interprets Margoan as a place where Jews weren't so careful with Stem Yaynam and Shimtza as wine mixed in. The Ritva ad loc argues that it was a Non-Jewish place, and that they sent him a present. The Rif and Rosh omit this din altogether. Meanwhile, the Rashba writes like Rashi in Torat HaBayit HaAroch 5:1 and that it's a stringency that a Baal Nefesh should accept upon himself; however, in Torat HaBayit HaKatzar he writes that it's prohibited unequivocally. The Tur Yoreh Deah 114:2 only brings the Rashba's opinion from the Katzar (he didn't have the Aroch), and the Beit Yosef ad loc fills in the Aroch. See Perishah Yoreh Deah 114:2 and Bach Kuntres Acharon ad loc for a discussion regarding why the Tur chose to include a Halacha about Stam Yeynam here next to Sheichar Akum, since it's seemingly unrelated. Shach Yoreh Deah 114:4 cites both. In Shulchan Aruch Yoreh Deah 114:2 he copies the unequivocally prohibited articulation.</ref> | ||
# Some remain lenient by Sheichar where the injunction of Stam Yeyanm is derelict, if the majority of the population consists of | # Some remain lenient by Sheichar where the injunction of Stam Yeyanm is derelict, if the majority of the population consists of non-Jews, as long as one is purchasing from a Non-Jewish vendor.<ref>The Maharshal is quoted as saying that the whole issue is irrelevant nowadays because it's so commonplace to be lax, so it should be permitted to drink the beverage outside the Goy's home. The Bach, however, argues that the Maharshal's reasoning does not obviate the concern for wine mixed in. Instead he interprets the Gezerah as enacted only in a place with a majority of Jews in the population, but, if the majority are non-Jews, one may purchase from the non-Jews but not the Jews who are suspect. On the other hand, Taz Yoreh Deah 114:3 contends Maharshal means that where it's widespread, not drinking sheichar won't mean anything for people because they won't know what to be distanced from. Shach Yoreh Deah 114:4, Pri Chadash Yoreh Deah 114:7, Zivchei Tzedek 114:13, and Kaf HaChaim 114:16 side with the Bach on this.</ref> | ||
# Some say that if there's no concern for wine being mixed in through negligence, then one can be lenient.<ref>Pri Toar 114:2 considers that in Margoan they weren't careful with the storage of the Sheichar and there was a real chance that wine was mixed in in their negligence. Therefore, if that is not the case one can be lenient, against the Shulchan Aruch's ruling. See Darkei Teshuvah 114:9 who is willing to consider this as part of a multifaceted leniency. </ref> | # Some say that if there's no concern for wine being mixed in through negligence, then one can be lenient.<ref>Pri Toar 114:2 considers that in Margoan they weren't careful with the storage of the Sheichar and there was a real chance that wine was mixed in in their negligence. Therefore, if that is not the case one can be lenient, against the Shulchan Aruch's ruling. See Darkei Teshuvah 114:9 who is willing to consider this as part of a multifaceted leniency. </ref> | ||
===Where=== | ===Where=== | ||
# The Gemara tells how one Amora would take the sheichar out the door of the Non- | # The Gemara tells how one Amora would take the sheichar out the door of the Non-Jew's home in order to drink it, while a different Amora would go all the way back home.<ref>Avodah Zarah 31b.</ref> At that point, the concern for intermarriage no longer applies.<ref>Rif, Rabbeinu Chananel, Ramban, Talmidei Rabbeinu Yonah, Rosh 2:15, Ran, and Tosafot Rid ad loc, Beit Yosef Yoreh Deah 114:1</ref> In practice, one can be lenient and drink once he has fully exited the place of sale, but there is definitely room to follow the second opinion either due to interest in being stringent or because the Halacha follows it.<ref>Most authorities (Rif, Tosafot, Rashba) argue that the second Amora was only acting stringently on himself, but the Rambam (Maachalot Assurot 17:10) took him more seriously and holds like him. Shulchan Aruch Yoreh Deah 114:1 presents the language of the Rambam, but Pri Chadash Yoreh Deah 114:3 and Darkei Teshuva 114:3 disagree. In the Pri Chadash's view, the second, more stringent Amora only went all the way home because he was a regular. A person who doesn't go regularly can even drink in the doorway of the place of sale. Mizmor leDavid (Pardo, ad loc.), Chochmat Adam 66:14, Aruch HaShulchan Yoreh Deah 114:10, and Zivchei Tzedek 114:3 argue back in favor of Shulchan Aruch's ruling and note that the Rama doesn't even disagree. However, the Shulchan Gavoah interprets Rambam and, by extension, Shulchan Aruch to not be literal in their insistence on going all the way home.</ref> | ||
# Therefore, even in a kosher restaurant, if it's owned by a non-Jew, a | # Therefore, even in a kosher restaurant, if it's owned by a non-Jew, a Sephardi<ref>see the leniency for Ashkenazim above</ref> may not have a beer at the bar; rather, he must take it and sit down at a table in the other room.<ref>[https://www.yutorah.org/sidebar/lecture.cfm/895256/rabbi-dovid-cohen-crc-/alcoholic-beverages-2-siman-114-sif-1b-drinking-in-a-non-jew-s-bar-or-home-source-of-the-prohibition-which-locations-which-beverages-/ R' Dovid Cohen (cRc)]</ref> | ||
# One who is staying overnight in a | # One who is staying overnight in a non-Jews home (such as in an inn or hotel), and one who is hosting the Non-Jew in his home, however, can be lenient, because of Eivah. The prohibition preventing intermarriage applies only in the context of a drinking party in the store or regularly in the Non-Jew's home.<ref>Sefer HaTerumah 158, Tosfot Avodah Zarah 31b s.v. Utravayhu, Talmidei Rabbeinu Yonah and Ritva ad loc, Ohr Zarua Avodah Zarah 163, Rosh Avodah Zarah 2:15 adds that "Gedolei Eretz HaEey (England) were lenient, Mordechai Avodah Zarah 819, Hagahot Maimoniot, Tur and Shulchan Aruch Yoreh Deah 114:1, Kenesset HaGedolah Hagahot Beit Yosef 114:10, Zivchei Tzedek 114:6-7, Kaf HaChaim Yoreh Deah 114:7</ref> | ||
# In other words, if one is participating in a fashion which is both "aray" (informal, unestablished) and "akrai" (seldom, three or fewer times), it is permissible. Meaning, drinking in an established fashion ("keva" instead of "aray") even once is a problem, and more than three times (ragil) even informally (be'akrai) are still problematic. | # In other words, if one is participating in a fashion which is both "aray" (informal, unestablished) and "akrai" (seldom, three or fewer times), it is permissible. Meaning, drinking in an established fashion ("keva" instead of "aray") even once is a problem, and more than three times (ragil) even informally (be'akrai) are still problematic. | ||
# One may also send someone to bring him Sheichar from a Non-Jew in the city and drink it bederech keva in his own home.<ref>Shulchan Aruch Yoreh Deah 114:1, Kaf HaChaim Yoreh Deah 114:8</ref> | # One may also send someone to bring him Sheichar from a Non-Jew in the city and drink it bederech keva in his own home.<ref>Shulchan Aruch Yoreh Deah 114:1, Kaf HaChaim Yoreh Deah 114:8</ref> | ||
# See page on [[Marit Ayin/Suspicious actions|Marit Ayin]] for relevant halachot in these situations. | # See page on [[Marit Ayin/Suspicious actions|Marit Ayin]] for relevant halachot in these situations. | ||
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#Some say that eating and drinking at the wedding of a Muslim is allowed.<ref>Yabia Omer Section 10, Yoreh Deah 13, Rav Ovadia argues that since Muslims are not idol worshipers the prohibition of eating and drinking at a non-Jewish wedding does not apply to Muslim weddings. </ref> Others argue that attending the wedding of any non-Jew, even if the non-Jew is a Muslim, is forbidden.<ref>Shut Chessed L'Avraham 14:26 pg. 127a, Darkei Teshuva 114:1, Ben Yisrael Lenachri pg. 398. According to view that it is forbidden to eat and drink at the wedding of a Muslim, the issue of eating and drinking at the wedding of a non-Jew is that it will lead to intermarriage. Therefore, it is still an issue to eat and drink at the wedding of a muslim as this practice may lead to intermarriage. </ref> | #Some say that eating and drinking at the wedding of a Muslim is allowed.<ref>Yabia Omer Section 10, Yoreh Deah 13, Rav Ovadia argues that since Muslims are not idol worshipers the prohibition of eating and drinking at a non-Jewish wedding does not apply to Muslim weddings. </ref> Others argue that attending the wedding of any non-Jew, even if the non-Jew is a Muslim, is forbidden.<ref>Shut Chessed L'Avraham 14:26 pg. 127a, Darkei Teshuva 114:1, Ben Yisrael Lenachri pg. 398. According to view that it is forbidden to eat and drink at the wedding of a Muslim, the issue of eating and drinking at the wedding of a non-Jew is that it will lead to intermarriage. Therefore, it is still an issue to eat and drink at the wedding of a muslim as this practice may lead to intermarriage. </ref> | ||
==Links== | |||
# For contemporary applications of some of these issues, including the views of Rav Yisroel Belsky and Rav Hershel Schachter, see [https://oukosher.org/blog/kosher-in-the-factory/coffee/ Coffee] and [https://oukosher.org/blog/kosher-professionals/drinking-coffee-on-the-road-2/ Drinking Coffee on the Road]. | |||
#[https://www.yutorah.org/sidebar/lecture.cfm/878315/rabbi-yoni-levin/meeting-for-coffee-at-starbucks-social-drinking-with-co-workers/ Shiur from Rabbi Yoni Levin] | #[https://www.yutorah.org/sidebar/lecture.cfm/878315/rabbi-yoni-levin/meeting-for-coffee-at-starbucks-social-drinking-with-co-workers/ Shiur from Rabbi Yoni Levin] | ||
#[https://www.torahmusings.com/2013/12/bars-and-office-parties-in-jewish-law-ii/#fn-19570-42 Article by Rabbi Jonathan Ziring in ''Torah Musings''] | #[https://www.torahmusings.com/2013/12/bars-and-office-parties-in-jewish-law-ii/#fn-19570-42 Article by Rabbi Jonathan Ziring in ''Torah Musings''] | ||
