Pat Haba Bikisnin: Difference between revisions
From Halachipedia
| Line 124: | Line 124: | ||
===If the food is meant to fill=== | ===If the food is meant to fill=== | ||
# [[Mezonot]] that fall into the category of filled dough or crumbling hard dough, if that food is meant to be eaten to fill oneself, one should make a [[HaMotzei]] regardless of how much one ate. However, foods that fall into the category of sweet dough, even if it’s meant to be eaten to satisfy hunger, one should make a [[Mezonot]]. <Ref> S”A 168:17 rules that bread filled with meat or fish has the Bracha of [[HaMotzei]]. Magen Avraham 168:44 explains that this Bracha is made even if one doesn’t have a keviyut sueda because regarding sweets that fill the bread such as fruit there’s room to say that such fillers make the bread into a temporary snack, however, a substantial filler such as meat, fish, or cheese don’t make the bread change from [[HaMotzei]] to [[Mezonot]]. This is also the opinion of the Mishna Brurah 168:94 and Yalkut Yosef ([[Brachot]] pg 125, Kitzur S”A 168:3). However, the Taz 168:20 argues that for filled bread the Bracha is [[Mezonot]] like in | # [[Mezonot]] that fall into the category of filled dough or crumbling hard dough, if that food is meant to be eaten to fill oneself, one should make a [[HaMotzei]] regardless of how much one ate. However, foods that fall into the category of sweet dough, even if it’s meant to be eaten to satisfy hunger, one should make a [[Mezonot]]. <Ref> S”A 168:17 rules that bread filled with meat or fish has the Bracha of [[HaMotzei]]. Magen Avraham 168:44 explains that this Bracha is made even if one doesn’t have a keviyut sueda because regarding sweets that fill the bread such as fruit there’s room to say that such fillers make the bread into a temporary snack, however, a substantial filler such as meat, fish, or cheese don’t make the bread change from [[HaMotzei]] to [[Mezonot]]. This is also the opinion of the Mishna Brurah 168:94 and Yalkut Yosef ([[Brachot]] pg 125, Kitzur S”A 168:3). However, the Taz 168:20 argues that for filled bread the Bracha is [[Mezonot]] like in Shulchan Aruch 168:7 unless there’s a keviyut sueda. [Interestingly, the Ben Ish Chai (Pinchas 20), Kaf HaChaim 168:137, and Halacha Brurah 168:49 are concerned for the opinion of the Taz and hold that one should make sure to have more than a keviyut sueda, however if one doesn’t have enough and one doesn’t have bread, one should make a [[mezonot]].] The VeZot HaBracha (pg 17 note 1) rules like Mishna Brurah that for bread that’s filled and is meant to fill one up the bracha is [[HaMotzei]]. </ref> | ||
# Soft pretzels according to some are hamotzei.<ref>Pri Megadim (E"A 168:39) writes that pretzels are hamotzei. Historically, pretzels were soft pretzels (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pretzel#History). Kaf Hachaim 168:59 quotes the Pri Megadim.</ref> Some hold that it is mezonot.<ref>Rabbi Forst (Laws of Brachos p. 238) writes that soft pretzels made with water might be hamotzei. The reason he is unsure is because they are made as a snack and some poskim hold that anything which is generally eaten as a snack is mezonot. This point is discussed at length in Kaf Hachaim 168:120 who concludes that it doesn't depend on whether it is usually eaten as a snack if it doesn't fit into the definitions of the rishonim.</ref> | |||
====Mezonot Rolls==== | ====Mezonot Rolls==== | ||
# Since '[[Mezonot]]' rolls are primarily eaten as part of a meal, many say that the bracha is [[HaMotzei]] (even if one eats a little) <ref> Vezot HaBracha (pg 19, chapter 19 and pg 386) in name of Rav Elyashiv, Rav Nissim Karelitz, and Or Letzion (Vol 2, 12:4). Many American rabbis ruled that the bracha is [[HaMotzei]] including Rabbi Avraham Bik, Rabbi Reuven Feinstein, Rabbi Moshe Heinemann, Rav Moshe Shtern, Rabbi Yisrael Belsky, Rabbi Avrham Bloomenkrantz, and Veten Bracha (Halachos of Brochos by Rabbi Bodner pg 498-9, chapter 27) in name of Rabbi Shlomo Zalman regarding America. </ref> and some say the bracha is [[Mezonot]] <ref> Vezot HaBracha (pg 18, chapter 3) in name of Rav Shlomo Zalman and the rabbis on the Badatz Edah Charedit </ref>. Therefore, one should eat it as part of a meal and make [[HaMotzei]]. <Ref> http://www.oukosher.org/index.php/common/article/the_mezonos_roll_is_it_a_piece_of_cake_by_rabbi_yaakov_luban/ is the OU's position based on a Teshuva of Rabbi Yisrael Belsky which is that if a [[Mezonot]] roll is eaten as part of the meal the bracha is [[HaMotzei]], see [[Making a meal on Mezonot]]. This is also the opinion of the Star-K http://www.star-k.org/kashrus/kk-issues-pashabah.htm. </ref> However, if that’s impossible, one has what to rely on to make a [[HaMotzei]], and one has what to rely on to make a [[Mezonot]]. <Ref> Vezot HaBracha (Birur 56, pg 352) </ref> | # Since '[[Mezonot]]' rolls are primarily eaten as part of a meal, many say that the bracha is [[HaMotzei]] (even if one eats a little) <ref> Vezot HaBracha (pg 19, chapter 19 and pg 386) in name of Rav Elyashiv, Rav Nissim Karelitz, and Or Letzion (Vol 2, 12:4). Many American rabbis ruled that the bracha is [[HaMotzei]] including Rabbi Avraham Bik, Rabbi Reuven Feinstein, Rabbi Moshe Heinemann, Rav Moshe Shtern, Rabbi Yisrael Belsky, Rabbi Avrham Bloomenkrantz, and Veten Bracha (Halachos of Brochos by Rabbi Bodner pg 498-9, chapter 27) in name of Rabbi Shlomo Zalman regarding America. </ref> and some say the bracha is [[Mezonot]] <ref> Vezot HaBracha (pg 18, chapter 3) in name of Rav Shlomo Zalman and the rabbis on the Badatz Edah Charedit </ref>. Therefore, one should eat it as part of a meal and make [[HaMotzei]]. <Ref> http://www.oukosher.org/index.php/common/article/the_mezonos_roll_is_it_a_piece_of_cake_by_rabbi_yaakov_luban/ is the OU's position based on a Teshuva of Rabbi Yisrael Belsky which is that if a [[Mezonot]] roll is eaten as part of the meal the bracha is [[HaMotzei]], see [[Making a meal on Mezonot]]. This is also the opinion of the Star-K http://www.star-k.org/kashrus/kk-issues-pashabah.htm. </ref> However, if that’s impossible, one has what to rely on to make a [[HaMotzei]], and one has what to rely on to make a [[Mezonot]]. <Ref> Vezot HaBracha (Birur 56, pg 352) </ref> | ||
| Line 143: | Line 144: | ||
====Honey Challah==== | ====Honey Challah==== | ||
# According to Ashkenazim, sweet [[challah]] is [[Hamotzei]] if there is a majority of water in comparison to the fruit juice, oil, sugar, etc. <ref>Vezot HaBracha (chap 3, pg 18) based on Mishna Brurah's 168:33 explanation of the Rama 168:7. </ref>However, Sephardim hold that sweet [[challah]] is [[Mezonot]] if one can taste the sweetness of the fruit juice, oil, sugar, etc. in the [[challah]]. <ref>Kaf HaChaim 168:58, Or Letzion (vol 2, 12:4), Chazon Ovadyah ([[Brachot]] pg 55) based on Shulchan Aruch 168:7 rule that sweet [[challah]] is [[mezonot]] if one can taste the sweetness in the [[challah]]. Birkat Hashem (Rav Moshe HaLevi vol 2, 2:40) agrees that sweet [[challah]] is [[Mezonot]] but argues that the amount of a regular meal isn't 6 or 8 Kezaytim but rather a little more than 2 Kezaytim and so if one eats more than 2 Kezaytim of sweet [[challah]] one should make [[HaMotzei]]. However, if it's made with a minority of water or no water then he agrees that the amount of a regular meal is 170cc (6 Kezaytim). </ref> Some Sephardic authorities say that even though the minhag is to make [[Mezonot]], a pious person would make sure that if he is going to have sweet [[challah]], it should be a part of a meal with real bread. <ref>Or Letzion (vol 2, 12:4 in the footnote) writes that even though the minhag is to make [[mezonot]] on sweet [[challah]] a pious person would make sure to have it in a meal in order to satisfy all opinions because the sweet [[challah]] is usually eaten as a meal. However, Vezot HaBracha (chap 3, pg 18) quotes Rav Mordechai Eliyahu who says that one does not need to be strict. [Chazon Ovadyah ([[Brachot]] pg 55) also makes | # According to Ashkenazim, sweet [[challah]] is [[Hamotzei]] if there is a majority of water in comparison to the fruit juice, oil, sugar, etc. <ref>Vezot HaBracha (chap 3, pg 18) based on Mishna Brurah's 168:33 explanation of the Rama 168:7. </ref>However, Sephardim hold that sweet [[challah]] is [[Mezonot]] if one can taste the sweetness of the fruit juice, oil, sugar, etc. in the [[challah]]. <ref>Kaf HaChaim 168:58, Or Letzion (vol 2, 12:4), Chazon Ovadyah ([[Brachot]] pg 55) based on Shulchan Aruch 168:7 rule that sweet [[challah]] is [[mezonot]] if one can taste the sweetness in the [[challah]]. Birkat Hashem (Rav Moshe HaLevi vol 2, 2:40) agrees that sweet [[challah]] is [[Mezonot]] but argues that the amount of a regular meal isn't 6 or 8 Kezaytim but rather a little more than 2 Kezaytim and so if one eats more than 2 Kezaytim of sweet [[challah]] one should make [[HaMotzei]]. However, if it's made with a minority of water or no water then he agrees that the amount of a regular meal is 170cc (6 Kezaytim). </ref> Some Sephardic authorities say that even though the minhag is to make [[Mezonot]], a pious person would make sure that if he is going to have sweet [[challah]], it should be a part of a meal with real bread. <ref>Or Letzion (vol 2, 12:4 in the footnote) writes that even though the minhag is to make [[mezonot]] on sweet [[challah]] a pious person would make sure to have it in a meal in order to satisfy all opinions because the sweet [[challah]] is usually eaten as a meal. However, Vezot HaBracha (chap 3, pg 18) quotes Rav Mordechai Eliyahu who says that one does not need to be strict. [Chazon Ovadyah ([[Brachot]] pg 55) also makes no mention of being strict in this matter. However, Kaf HaChaim 168:58 quotes the Emek Bracha and Shlah who say that a pious person would be strict in all cases that there is a recognizable taste of the sweetness in the dough.] </ref> | ||
# If a Sephardi is eating at an Ashkenazic family who is having sweet [[challah]] for [[Hamotzei]] on [[Shabbat]], ideally, one should eat 8 [[Measurements#Kezayit|Kezayitim]] of the [[challah]] in order to be able to make [[HaMotzei]] and [[Birkat HaMazon]]. Some authorities say that if that's difficult one should have 6 [[Measurements#Kezayit|Kezayitim]], and if that's difficult there is what to rely on to make a [[HaMotzei]] and [[Birkat HaMazon]] even if one only eats 1 [[Measurements#Kezayit|Kezayit]] of the sweet [[Challah]]. <ref> Vezot HaBracha (Chapter 4, pg 39) in name of Rav Mordechai Eliyahu and Rav Elyashiv paskening for Sephardim ruled that, ideally, one should eat 8 [[Measurements#Kezayit|Kezayitim]] of the [[challah]] in order to be able to make [[HaMotzei]] and [[Birkat HaMazon]], however, if that’s difficult one should have 6 Kezaytim and if that’s difficult there’s what to rely on to make a [[HaMotzei]] and [[Birkat HaMazon]] even if one only eats one [[Measurements#Kezayit|Kezayit]] of the sweet [[Challah]]. Vezot HaBracha also quotes this from Rav Shlomo Levi in Kuntres Birkat HaPat pg 43. The reasons given for this ruling is | # If a Sephardi is eating at an Ashkenazic family who is having sweet [[challah]] for [[Hamotzei]] on [[Shabbat]], ideally, one should eat 8 [[Measurements#Kezayit|Kezayitim]] of the [[challah]] in order to be able to make [[HaMotzei]] and [[Birkat HaMazon]]. Some authorities say that if that's difficult one should have 6 [[Measurements#Kezayit|Kezayitim]], and if that's difficult there is what to rely on to make a [[HaMotzei]] and [[Birkat HaMazon]] even if one only eats 1 [[Measurements#Kezayit|Kezayit]] of the sweet [[Challah]]. <ref> Vezot HaBracha (Chapter 4, pg 39) in name of Rav Mordechai Eliyahu and Rav Elyashiv paskening for Sephardim ruled that, ideally, one should eat 8 [[Measurements#Kezayit|Kezayitim]] of the [[challah]] in order to be able to make [[HaMotzei]] and [[Birkat HaMazon]], however, if that’s difficult one should have 6 Kezaytim and if that’s difficult there’s what to rely on to make a [[HaMotzei]] and [[Birkat HaMazon]] even if one only eats one [[Measurements#Kezayit|Kezayit]] of the sweet [[Challah]]. Vezot HaBracha also quotes this from Rav Shlomo Levi in Kuntres Birkat HaPat pg 43. The reasons given for this ruling is: (1) this definition of [[Pas HaBah Bekisnin]] is only one of three (S”A 168:7) and perhaps according to the other opinions it’s real bread. (2) Also, according to the Rama’s 168:7 explanation of this definition the Bracha would be [[HaMotzei]]. (3) Lastly, according to the Bet Yosef since this sweet [[challah]] is used regularly for a meal the Bracha would be [[HaMotzei]]. (4) Additionally, Birkat Hashem (Rav Moshe HaLevi vol 2, 2:40) holds that one should make [[HaMotzei]] on sweet [[challah]] if one eats a little more than 2 Kezaytim unless it is made with a majority of sweeteners. (5) The Magen Avraham 168:13 holds that all other foods in the food combine with the pas haba bekisnin to establish it as a meal. The Chida (Birkei Yosef 168:6) argues and Sephardim (Kaf Hachaim 168:47) follow the Chida. (6) See Kaf Hachaim 168:45 regarding Shabbat making all Pat Haba Bkisnin hamotzei. The Mahari Chagiz held it did and the Ginat Veradim and Chida who held that it did not. (7) The Magen Avraham 168:44 holds that eggs don't make it into pas haba bkisnin, however, the Kaf Hachaim 168:139 quotes the Dagul Mirvavah and Zera Emet who argue with the Magen Avraham. Halacha Brurah 168:23 rules against the Magen Avraham. </ref>However, some authorities argue that a Sephardi guest at an Ashkenazi family who is having sweet [[challah]] should make sure to take with him real bread that isn’t sweet in order to make [[HaMotzei]] and fulfill the mitzvah of Seudat [[Shabbat]]. <ref>However, Chazon Ovadyah ([[Brachot]] pg 55-60) rejects the arguments to be lenient as he holds that all of them are against Shulchan Aruch. Therefore, he rules that a Sephardic guest at an Ashkenazic home that is making [[HaMotzei]] on sweet [[challah]] should make sure to take with him regular [[challah]] in order to make [[Hamotzei]] and fulfill the mitzvah of Seudat [[Shabbat]]. Sh”t Avnei Yishfeh 3:16 (pg 34) quotes Chacham Ben Tzion Abba Shaul who said that a Sephardi who is a guest at an Ashkenazic home should make [[Mezonot]]. </ref> | ||
==Questions and Answers== | ==Questions and Answers== | ||
