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Pat Haba Bikisnin: Difference between revisions
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==What's considered a meal== | ==What's considered a meal== | ||
===When Pas Haba BeKisnin is eaten alone?=== | ===When Pas Haba BeKisnin is eaten alone?=== | ||
#According to Ashkenazim, if one eats less than 8 [[Measurements#Kezayit|Kezaytim]] one should certainly make a Mezonot. If one eats the amount of a regular meal one should make HaMotzei. [For a regular person if one eats 280 grams of regular cake one certainly is having the amount of a regular meal and could make HaMotzei and Birkat HaMazon.] Preferably, one shouldn't have in between 8 [[Measurements#Kezayit|Kezayitim]] and the amount of a regular meal unless one first washes and makes HaMotzei on real bread. After the fact (if one ate between 8 [[Measurements#Kezayit|Kezayitim]] and a definite meal), if one is not full make Al HaMichya and if one is full make Birkat HaMazon, yet, in such a case it’s preferable to hear Birkat HaMazon (from someone who’s obligated to make Birkat HaMazon) or to eat bread (making HaMotzei and Birkat HaMazon). [For background see footnote.]<ref>See next note </ref> | #According to Ashkenazim, if one eats less than 8 [[Measurements#Kezayit|Kezaytim]] one should certainly make a Mezonot. If one eats the amount of a regular meal one should make HaMotzei. [For a regular person if one eats 280 grams of regular cake one certainly is having the amount of a regular meal and could make HaMotzei and Birkat HaMazon.] Preferably, one shouldn't have in between 8 [[Measurements#Kezayit|Kezayitim]] and the amount of a regular meal unless one first washes and makes HaMotzei on real bread. After the fact (if one ate between 8 [[Measurements#Kezayit|Kezayitim]] and a definite meal), if one is not full make Al HaMichya and if one is full make Birkat HaMazon, yet, in such a case it’s preferable to hear [[Birkat HaMazon]] (from someone who’s obligated to make Birkat HaMazon) or to eat bread (making HaMotzei and Birkat HaMazon). [For background see footnote.]<ref>See next note </ref> | ||
#According to Sephardim, if one ate less than 6 [[Measurements#Kezayit|Kezaytim]] one should make a Mezonot. If one eats more than 8 [[Measurements#Kezayit|Kezayitim]] one should make HaMotzei. Preferably one shouldn't eat between 6 and 8 [[Measurements#Kezayit|Kezaytim]] and if one did then one should just make Al HaMichya. [For background see footnote.]<ref> | #According to Sephardim, if one ate less than 6 [[Measurements#Kezayit|Kezaytim]] one should make a Mezonot. If one eats more than 8 [[Measurements#Kezayit|Kezayitim]] one should make HaMotzei. Preferably one shouldn't eat between 6 and 8 [[Measurements#Kezayit|Kezaytim]] and if one did then one should just make Al HaMichya. [For background see footnote.]<ref> | ||
'''What’s the Bracha on Pas HaBah Bekisnin?''' | '''What’s the Bracha on Pas HaBah Bekisnin?''' | ||
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'''What is considered a meal?''' | '''What is considered a meal?''' | ||
* The Bet Yosef 168:6 quoting the Shibolei HaLeket (Siman 159), Magan Avraham 168:13, and Chaye Adam 54:14 in name of the Gra hold that the amount of meal for this halacha is the amount people normally eat at a regular meal in the morning and evening. (Mishna Brurah 168:24 and Shaar HaTzion 19 also quote the Sefer Eshkol and Shagat Aryeh). However, the Birkei Yosef 186:4 and Kaf HaChaim 168:45 argue that the amount of a meal in this context is the same as a meal for Eruv Chatzerot which is either 3 or 4 KeBaytzim. | * The Bet Yosef 168:6 quoting the Shibolei HaLeket (Siman 159), Magan Avraham 168:13, and Chaye Adam 54:14 in name of the Gra hold that the amount of meal for this halacha is the amount people normally eat at a regular meal in the morning and evening. (Mishna Brurah 168:24 and Shaar HaTzion 19 also quote the Sefer Eshkol and Shagat Aryeh). However, the Birkei Yosef 186:4 and Kaf HaChaim 168:45 argue that the amount of a meal in this context is the same as a meal for Eruv Chatzerot which is either 3 or 4 KeBaytzim. | ||
* Ashkenazim: The Mishna Brurah 168:24 rules that the halacha follows the opinion that a meal is considered by a regular meal people eat but adds that it's proper to be strict for those who are strict to require 4 KeBaytzim (meaning, that preferably one should only eat less than 8 [[Measurements#Kezayit|Kezayitim]] or more than the amount of a regular meal, Vezot HaBracha pg 29). VeZot HaBracha (chap 4, pg 31) writes that according to his calculation for a regular person for regular cake if one eats less than 230 grams that is considered a snack, if one eat more than 280 grams that is certainly a meal. He continues that if one did eat in between 8 [[Measurements#Kezayit|Kezayitim]] and a certain meal, if one is not full make Al HaMichya and if one is full make Birkat HaMazon, yet, in such a case it’s preferable to hear Birkat HaMazon (from someone who’s obligated to make Birkat HaMazon) or to eat bread (making HaMotzei and Birkat HaMazon). Halachos of Brachos (Rabbi Bodner, chap 27, pg 488-9) agrees to the above halachot and adds that if one wishes to have more than 8 [[Measurements#Kezayit|Kezayitim]] and less than the amount of a regular meal one may do so but one should first wash and make Hamotzei on a Kezayit of bread. | * Ashkenazim: The Mishna Brurah 168:24 rules that the halacha follows the opinion that a meal is considered by a regular meal people eat but adds that it's proper to be strict for those who are strict to require 4 KeBaytzim (meaning, that preferably one should only eat less than 8 [[Measurements#Kezayit|Kezayitim]] or more than the amount of a regular meal, Vezot HaBracha pg 29). VeZot HaBracha (chap 4, pg 31) writes that according to his calculation for a regular person for regular cake if one eats less than 230 grams that is considered a snack, if one eat more than 280 grams that is certainly a meal. He continues that if one did eat in between 8 [[Measurements#Kezayit|Kezayitim]] and a certain meal, if one is not full make Al HaMichya and if one is full make Birkat HaMazon, yet, in such a case it’s preferable to hear [[Birkat HaMazon]] (from someone who’s obligated to make Birkat HaMazon) or to eat bread (making HaMotzei and Birkat HaMazon). Halachos of Brachos (Rabbi Bodner, chap 27, pg 488-9) agrees to the above halachot and adds that if one wishes to have more than 8 [[Measurements#Kezayit|Kezayitim]] and less than the amount of a regular meal one may do so but one should first wash and make Hamotzei on a Kezayit of bread. | ||
* Sephardim: Halacha Brurah 168:16 (explained in Otzorot Yosef Siman 9) writes that Sephardim hold like the Chida that if one ate 8 [[Measurements#Kezayit|Kezayitim]] one should make HaMotzei and Birkat HaMazon, and if one ate less than that one should make Mezonot and Al HaMichya but it's preferable that one shouldn't eat in between 6 and 8 [[Measurements#Kezayit|Kezayitim]]. This is also the ruling in Ben Ish Chai Pinchas 19, Kaf Hachayim 168:45, Sh"t Shemesh U'magen 2: hashmatot page 318, and Chazon Ovadia Berachot page 56. </ref> | * Sephardim: Halacha Brurah 168:16 (explained in Otzorot Yosef Siman 9) writes that Sephardim hold like the Chida that if one ate 8 [[Measurements#Kezayit|Kezayitim]] one should make HaMotzei and Birkat HaMazon, and if one ate less than that one should make Mezonot and Al HaMichya but it's preferable that one shouldn't eat in between 6 and 8 [[Measurements#Kezayit|Kezayitim]]. This is also the ruling in Ben Ish Chai Pinchas 19, Kaf Hachayim 168:45, Sh"t Shemesh U'magen 2: hashmatot page 318, and Chazon Ovadia Berachot page 56. </ref> | ||
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* The Magan Avraham introduced the idea of having other foods count toward the amount of a meal when eaten with Pas HaBah Bekisnin. There’s four limitation of this idea. (1) Some say that there needs to be a minimum of 4 [[Measurements#Kebaytzah|KeBaytzim]] in order for the other foods to combine. (2) Some say that only food that if normally eaten on bread (such as meat) combine. (3) Some say that only Pas HaBah Bekisnin that is normally used as a bread substitute combines with other foods. (4) Some say that the food only combines when it’s eaten on bread. However, all four limitation are subject to dispute. | * The Magan Avraham introduced the idea of having other foods count toward the amount of a meal when eaten with Pas HaBah Bekisnin. There’s four limitation of this idea. (1) Some say that there needs to be a minimum of 4 [[Measurements#Kebaytzah|KeBaytzim]] in order for the other foods to combine. (2) Some say that only food that if normally eaten on bread (such as meat) combine. (3) Some say that only Pas HaBah Bekisnin that is normally used as a bread substitute combines with other foods. (4) Some say that the food only combines when it’s eaten on bread. However, all four limitation are subject to dispute. | ||
'''Practical Halacha''' | '''Practical Halacha''' | ||
* Regarding dispute 1 and 2, Vezot HaBracha (pg 33, note 11) writes that after the fact if one ate in between 1 and 8 Kezayitim, or even if one ate 8 Kezaytim of Pas HaBah Bekisnin but the other food one ate doesn’t normally accompany bread (such as rice) one should make Al Hamichya but in the latter case it’s preferable to hear Birkat HaMazon from someone else (who is obligated to make Birkat HaMazon) and fulfill the obligation through Shomea KeOneh. | * Regarding dispute 1 and 2, Vezot HaBracha (pg 33, note 11) writes that after the fact if one ate in between 1 and 8 Kezayitim, or even if one ate 8 Kezaytim of Pas HaBah Bekisnin but the other food one ate doesn’t normally accompany bread (such as rice) one should make Al Hamichya but in the latter case it’s preferable to hear [[Birkat HaMazon]] from someone else (who is obligated to make Birkat HaMazon) and fulfill the obligation through Shomea KeOneh. | ||
* Regarding dispute 3, Halachos of Brachos (chap 27, pg 491, note z) siply quotes the dispute but doesn’t legislate. | * Regarding dispute 3, Halachos of Brachos (chap 27, pg 491, note z) siply quotes the dispute but doesn’t legislate. | ||
* Regarding dispute 4, The Vezot HaBracha (pg 33, note 11) concludes that one can make HaMotzei and Birkat HaMazon if one eats 8 Kezaytim of Pas HaBah Bekisnin with food that would normally be eaten with Pas HaBah Bekisnin and was full from everything together (seemingly ignoring this dispute). | * Regarding dispute 4, The Vezot HaBracha (pg 33, note 11) concludes that one can make HaMotzei and [[Birkat HaMazon]] if one eats 8 Kezaytim of Pas HaBah Bekisnin with food that would normally be eaten with Pas HaBah Bekisnin and was full from everything together (seemingly ignoring this dispute). | ||
'''Practical suggestions''' | '''Practical suggestions''' | ||
* Vezot HaBracha (chap 4, pg 32) writes that because of all the disputes one should avoid eating the amount that people normally would become full on, or first eat bread and make HaMotzei or use the next suggestion. Vezot HaBracha writes that one may eat the Pas HaBah Bekisnin first, make a Bracha Achrona, and then eat the other foods, or eat the other foods, make a Bracha Achrona, and then eat the Pas HaBah Bekisnin. By doing this the Pas HaBah Bekisnin certainly doesn’t combine with other foods to be considered a meal. However, this suggestion doesn’t apply when the other foods are Mezonot because by making a Bracha Achrona in the middle one will have made a Bracha unnecessarily. Vezot HaBracha (pg 33, note 12) writes that the first option of having the Pas HaBah Bekisnin followed by the other food is preferable to the second option because everyone agrees to the first option whereas the second one is subject to dispute but may be employed in a case of a certain need. </ref> | * Vezot HaBracha (chap 4, pg 32) writes that because of all the disputes one should avoid eating the amount that people normally would become full on, or first eat bread and make HaMotzei or use the next suggestion. Vezot HaBracha writes that one may eat the Pas HaBah Bekisnin first, make a Bracha Achrona, and then eat the other foods, or eat the other foods, make a Bracha Achrona, and then eat the Pas HaBah Bekisnin. By doing this the Pas HaBah Bekisnin certainly doesn’t combine with other foods to be considered a meal. However, this suggestion doesn’t apply when the other foods are Mezonot because by making a Bracha Achrona in the middle one will have made a Bracha unnecessarily. Vezot HaBracha (pg 33, note 12) writes that the first option of having the Pas HaBah Bekisnin followed by the other food is preferable to the second option because everyone agrees to the first option whereas the second one is subject to dispute but may be employed in a case of a certain need. </ref> | ||
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====Honey Challah==== | ====Honey Challah==== | ||
# According to Ashkenazim, sweet challah is Hamotzei if there is a majority of water in comparison to the fruit juice, oil, sugar, etc. <ref>Vezot HaBracha (chap 3, pg 18) based on Mishna Brurah's 168:33 explanation of the Rama 168:7. </ref>However, Sephardim hold that sweet challah is Mezonot if one can taste the sweetness of the fruit juice, oil, sugar, etc. in the challah. <ref>Kaf HaChaim 168:58, Or Letzion (vol 2, 12:4), Chazon Ovadyah (Brachot pg 55) based on S"A 168:7 rule that sweet challah is mezonot if one can taste the sweetness in the challah. Birkat Hashem (Rav Moshe HaLevi vol 2, 2:40) agrees that sweet challah is Mezonot but argues that the amount of a regular meal isn't 6 or 8 Kezaytim but rather a little more than 2 Kezaytim and so if one eats more than 2 Kezaytim of sweet challah one should make HaMotzei. However, if it's made with a minority of water or no water then he agrees that the amount of a regular meal is 170cc (6 Kezaytim). </ref> Some Sephardic authorities say that even though the minhag is to make Mezonot, a pious person would make sure that if he is going to have sweet challah, it should be a part of a meal with real bread. <ref>Or Letzion (vol 2, 12:4 in the footnote) writes that even though the minhag is to make mezonot on sweet challah a pious person would make sure to have it in a meal in order to satisfy all opinions because the sweet challah is usually eaten as a meal. However, Vezot HaBracha (chap 3, pg 18) quotes Rav Mordechai Eliyahu who says that one does not need to be strict. [Chazon Ovadyah (Brachot pg 55) also makes not mention of being strict in this matter. However, Kaf HaChaim 168:58 quotes the Emek Bracha and Shlah who say that a pious person would be strict in all cases that there is a strong taste of the sweetness in the dough.] </ref> | # According to Ashkenazim, sweet challah is Hamotzei if there is a majority of water in comparison to the fruit juice, oil, sugar, etc. <ref>Vezot HaBracha (chap 3, pg 18) based on Mishna Brurah's 168:33 explanation of the Rama 168:7. </ref>However, Sephardim hold that sweet challah is Mezonot if one can taste the sweetness of the fruit juice, oil, sugar, etc. in the challah. <ref>Kaf HaChaim 168:58, Or Letzion (vol 2, 12:4), Chazon Ovadyah (Brachot pg 55) based on S"A 168:7 rule that sweet challah is mezonot if one can taste the sweetness in the challah. Birkat Hashem (Rav Moshe HaLevi vol 2, 2:40) agrees that sweet challah is Mezonot but argues that the amount of a regular meal isn't 6 or 8 Kezaytim but rather a little more than 2 Kezaytim and so if one eats more than 2 Kezaytim of sweet challah one should make HaMotzei. However, if it's made with a minority of water or no water then he agrees that the amount of a regular meal is 170cc (6 Kezaytim). </ref> Some Sephardic authorities say that even though the minhag is to make Mezonot, a pious person would make sure that if he is going to have sweet challah, it should be a part of a meal with real bread. <ref>Or Letzion (vol 2, 12:4 in the footnote) writes that even though the minhag is to make mezonot on sweet challah a pious person would make sure to have it in a meal in order to satisfy all opinions because the sweet challah is usually eaten as a meal. However, Vezot HaBracha (chap 3, pg 18) quotes Rav Mordechai Eliyahu who says that one does not need to be strict. [Chazon Ovadyah (Brachot pg 55) also makes not mention of being strict in this matter. However, Kaf HaChaim 168:58 quotes the Emek Bracha and Shlah who say that a pious person would be strict in all cases that there is a strong taste of the sweetness in the dough.] </ref> | ||
# If a Sephardi is eating at an Ashkenazic family who is having sweet challah for Hamotzei on [[Shabbat]], ideally, one should eat 8 [[Measurements#Kezayit|Kezayitim]] of the challah in order to be able to make HaMotzei and Birkat HaMazon. Some authorities say that if that's difficult one should have 6 [[Measurements#Kezayit|Kezayitim]], and if that's difficult there is what to rely on to make a HaMotzei and Birkat HaMazon even if one only eats 1 [[Measurements#Kezayit|Kezayit]] of the sweet Challah. <ref> Vezot HaBracha (Chapter 4, pg 39) in name of Rav Mordechai Eliyahu and Rav Elyashiv paskening for Sephardim ruled that, ideally, one should eat 8 [[Measurements#Kezayit|Kezayitim]] of the challah in order to be able to make HaMotzei and Birkat HaMazon, however, if that’s difficult one should have 6 Kezaytim and if that’s difficult there’s what to rely on to make a HaMotzei and Birkat HaMazon even if one only eats one [[Measurements#Kezayit|Kezayit]] of the sweet Challah. Vezot HaBracha also quotes this from Rav Shlomo Levi in Kuntres Birkat HaPat pg 43. The reasons given for this ruling is first of all this definition of Pas HaBah Bekisnin is only one of three (S”A 168:7) and perhaps according to the other opinions it’s real bread. Also according to the Rama’s 168:7 explanation of this definition the Bracha would be HaMotzei. Lastly, according to the Bet Yosef since this sweet challah is used regularly for a meal the Bracha would be HaMotzei. Additionally, Birkat Hashem (Rav Moshe HaLevi vol 2, 2:40) holds that one should make HaMotzei on Sweet challah if one eats a little more than 2 Kezaytim unless it is made with a majority of sweeteners. </ref>However, some authorities argue that a Sephardi guest at an Ashkenazi family who is having sweet challah should make sure to take with him real bread that isn’t sweet in order to make HaMotzei and fulfill the mitzvah of Seudat [[Shabbat]]. <ref>However, Chazon Ovadyah (Brachot pg 55-60) rejects the arguments to be lenient as he holds that all of them are against Shulchan Aruch. Therefore, he rules that a Sephardic guest at an Ashkenazic home that is making HaMotzei on sweet challah should make sure to take with him regular challah in order to make Hamotzei and fulfill the mitzvah of Seudat [[Shabbat]]. Sh”t Avnei Yishfeh 3:16 (pg 34) quotes Chacham Ben Tzion Abba Shaul who said that a Sephardi who is a guest at an Ashkenazic home should make Mezonot. </ref> | # If a Sephardi is eating at an Ashkenazic family who is having sweet challah for Hamotzei on [[Shabbat]], ideally, one should eat 8 [[Measurements#Kezayit|Kezayitim]] of the challah in order to be able to make HaMotzei and Birkat HaMazon. Some authorities say that if that's difficult one should have 6 [[Measurements#Kezayit|Kezayitim]], and if that's difficult there is what to rely on to make a HaMotzei and [[Birkat HaMazon]] even if one only eats 1 [[Measurements#Kezayit|Kezayit]] of the sweet Challah. <ref> Vezot HaBracha (Chapter 4, pg 39) in name of Rav Mordechai Eliyahu and Rav Elyashiv paskening for Sephardim ruled that, ideally, one should eat 8 [[Measurements#Kezayit|Kezayitim]] of the challah in order to be able to make HaMotzei and Birkat HaMazon, however, if that’s difficult one should have 6 Kezaytim and if that’s difficult there’s what to rely on to make a HaMotzei and [[Birkat HaMazon]] even if one only eats one [[Measurements#Kezayit|Kezayit]] of the sweet Challah. Vezot HaBracha also quotes this from Rav Shlomo Levi in Kuntres Birkat HaPat pg 43. The reasons given for this ruling is first of all this definition of Pas HaBah Bekisnin is only one of three (S”A 168:7) and perhaps according to the other opinions it’s real bread. Also according to the Rama’s 168:7 explanation of this definition the Bracha would be HaMotzei. Lastly, according to the Bet Yosef since this sweet challah is used regularly for a meal the Bracha would be HaMotzei. Additionally, Birkat Hashem (Rav Moshe HaLevi vol 2, 2:40) holds that one should make HaMotzei on Sweet challah if one eats a little more than 2 Kezaytim unless it is made with a majority of sweeteners. </ref>However, some authorities argue that a Sephardi guest at an Ashkenazi family who is having sweet challah should make sure to take with him real bread that isn’t sweet in order to make HaMotzei and fulfill the mitzvah of Seudat [[Shabbat]]. <ref>However, Chazon Ovadyah (Brachot pg 55-60) rejects the arguments to be lenient as he holds that all of them are against Shulchan Aruch. Therefore, he rules that a Sephardic guest at an Ashkenazic home that is making HaMotzei on sweet challah should make sure to take with him regular challah in order to make Hamotzei and fulfill the mitzvah of Seudat [[Shabbat]]. Sh”t Avnei Yishfeh 3:16 (pg 34) quotes Chacham Ben Tzion Abba Shaul who said that a Sephardi who is a guest at an Ashkenazic home should make Mezonot. </ref> | ||
==Questions and Answers== | ==Questions and Answers== | ||
