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Pat Haba Bikisnin: Difference between revisions
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# If one made Mezonot planning to have a few Kezyitim, and then changes to have another few [[Measurements#Kezayit|Kezayitim]] and in total all he ate will add up to 8 [[Measurements#Kezayit|Kezayitim]] one shouldn’t make any new bracha upon changing one’s mind, however, if one started thinking that one would not have more than a certain amount and now clearly changes his mind about that, one should make a new Mezonot. Nonetheless, one concludes with Birkat HaMazon. <ref> Mishan Brurah 168:25 writes that if one changed one’s mind one doesn’t make a new HaMotzei if one doesn’t plan on eating more than 8 [[Measurements#Kezayit|Kezayitim]]. Mishna Brurah (Shaar Tzion 168:21) writes that one shouldn’t make a new Mezonot unless one clearly changed one’s mind such as if when he started he thought that he will not eat more than a certain amount, however, if one didn’t clearly retract his opinion then one doesn’t make a new Mezonot. </ref> | # If one made Mezonot planning to have a few Kezyitim, and then changes to have another few [[Measurements#Kezayit|Kezayitim]] and in total all he ate will add up to 8 [[Measurements#Kezayit|Kezayitim]] one shouldn’t make any new bracha upon changing one’s mind, however, if one started thinking that one would not have more than a certain amount and now clearly changes his mind about that, one should make a new Mezonot. Nonetheless, one concludes with Birkat HaMazon. <ref> Mishan Brurah 168:25 writes that if one changed one’s mind one doesn’t make a new HaMotzei if one doesn’t plan on eating more than 8 [[Measurements#Kezayit|Kezayitim]]. Mishna Brurah (Shaar Tzion 168:21) writes that one shouldn’t make a new Mezonot unless one clearly changed one’s mind such as if when he started he thought that he will not eat more than a certain amount, however, if one didn’t clearly retract his opinion then one doesn’t make a new Mezonot. </ref> | ||
[[file:Koveh Seudah.png]] | [[file:Koveh Seudah.png]] | ||
====Keviut Seduah on Shabbat==== | ====Keviut Seduah on [[Shabbat]]==== | ||
#There’s no difference between Shabbat and the rest of the week regarding the status of the Pat habah BeKisnin. <ref> Kaf HaChaim 168:48. </ref> | #There’s no difference between [[Shabbat]] and the rest of the week regarding the status of the Pat habah BeKisnin. <ref> Kaf HaChaim 168:48. </ref> | ||
==What is Pas Haba Bikisnin?== | ==What is Pas Haba Bikisnin?== | ||
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====Honey Challah==== | ====Honey Challah==== | ||
# According to Ashkenazim, sweet challah is Hamotzei if there is a majority of water in comparison to the fruit juice, oil, sugar, etc. <ref>Vezot HaBracha (chap 3, pg 18) based on Mishna Brurah's 168:33 explanation of the Rama 168:7. </ref>However, Sephardim hold that sweet challah is Mezonot if one can taste the sweetness of the fruit juice, oil, sugar, etc. in the challah. <ref>Kaf HaChaim 168:58, Or Letzion (vol 2, 12:4), Chazon Ovadyah (Brachot pg 55) based on S"A 168:7 rule that sweet challah is mezonot if one can taste the sweetness in the challah. Birkat Hashem (Rav Moshe HaLevi vol 2, 2:40) agrees that sweet challah is Mezonot but argues that the amount of a regular meal isn't 6 or 8 Kezaytim but rather a little more than 2 Kezaytim and so if one eats more than 2 Kezaytim of sweet challah one should make HaMotzei. However, if it's made with a minority of water or no water then he agrees that the amount of a regular meal is 170cc (6 Kezaytim). </ref> Some Sephardic authorities say that even though the minhag is to make Mezonot, a pious person would make sure that if he is going to have sweet challah, it should be a part of a meal with real bread. <ref>Or Letzion (vol 2, 12:4 in the footnote) writes that even though the minhag is to make mezonot on sweet challah a pious person would make sure to have it in a meal in order to satisfy all opinions because the sweet challah is usually eaten as a meal. However, Vezot HaBracha (chap 3, pg 18) quotes Rav Mordechai Eliyahu who says that one does not need to be strict. [Chazon Ovadyah (Brachot pg 55) also makes not mention of being strict in this matter. However, Kaf HaChaim 168:58 quotes the Emek Bracha and Shlah who say that a pious person would be strict in all cases that there is a strong taste of the sweetness in the dough.] </ref> | # According to Ashkenazim, sweet challah is Hamotzei if there is a majority of water in comparison to the fruit juice, oil, sugar, etc. <ref>Vezot HaBracha (chap 3, pg 18) based on Mishna Brurah's 168:33 explanation of the Rama 168:7. </ref>However, Sephardim hold that sweet challah is Mezonot if one can taste the sweetness of the fruit juice, oil, sugar, etc. in the challah. <ref>Kaf HaChaim 168:58, Or Letzion (vol 2, 12:4), Chazon Ovadyah (Brachot pg 55) based on S"A 168:7 rule that sweet challah is mezonot if one can taste the sweetness in the challah. Birkat Hashem (Rav Moshe HaLevi vol 2, 2:40) agrees that sweet challah is Mezonot but argues that the amount of a regular meal isn't 6 or 8 Kezaytim but rather a little more than 2 Kezaytim and so if one eats more than 2 Kezaytim of sweet challah one should make HaMotzei. However, if it's made with a minority of water or no water then he agrees that the amount of a regular meal is 170cc (6 Kezaytim). </ref> Some Sephardic authorities say that even though the minhag is to make Mezonot, a pious person would make sure that if he is going to have sweet challah, it should be a part of a meal with real bread. <ref>Or Letzion (vol 2, 12:4 in the footnote) writes that even though the minhag is to make mezonot on sweet challah a pious person would make sure to have it in a meal in order to satisfy all opinions because the sweet challah is usually eaten as a meal. However, Vezot HaBracha (chap 3, pg 18) quotes Rav Mordechai Eliyahu who says that one does not need to be strict. [Chazon Ovadyah (Brachot pg 55) also makes not mention of being strict in this matter. However, Kaf HaChaim 168:58 quotes the Emek Bracha and Shlah who say that a pious person would be strict in all cases that there is a strong taste of the sweetness in the dough.] </ref> | ||
# If a Sephardi is eating at an Ashkenazic family who is having sweet challah for Hamotzei on Shabbat, ideally, one should eat 8 [[Measurements#Kezayit|Kezayitim]] of the challah in order to be able to make HaMotzei and Birkat HaMazon. Some authorities say that if that's difficult one should have 6 [[Measurements#Kezayit|Kezayitim]], and if that's difficult there is what to rely on to make a HaMotzei and Birkat HaMazon even if one only eats 1 [[Measurements#Kezayit|Kezayit]] of the sweet Challah. <ref> Vezot HaBracha (Chapter 4, pg 39) in name of Rav Mordechai Eliyahu and Rav Elyashiv paskening for Sephardim ruled that, ideally, one should eat 8 [[Measurements#Kezayit|Kezayitim]] of the challah in order to be able to make HaMotzei and Birkat HaMazon, however, if that’s difficult one should have 6 Kezaytim and if that’s difficult there’s what to rely on to make a HaMotzei and Birkat HaMazon even if one only eats one [[Measurements#Kezayit|Kezayit]] of the sweet Challah. Vezot HaBracha also quotes this from Rav Shlomo Levi in Kuntres Birkat HaPat pg 43. The reasons given for this ruling is first of all this definition of Pas HaBah Bekisnin is only one of three (S”A 168:7) and perhaps according to the other opinions it’s real bread. Also according to the Rama’s 168:7 explanation of this definition the Bracha would be HaMotzei. Lastly, according to the Bet Yosef since this sweet challah is used regularly for a meal the Bracha would be HaMotzei. Additionally, Birkat Hashem (Rav Moshe HaLevi vol 2, 2:40) holds that one should make HaMotzei on Sweet challah if one eats a little more than 2 Kezaytim unless it is made with a majority of sweeteners. </ref>However, some authorities argue that a Sephardi guest at an Ashkenazi family who is having sweet challah should make sure to take with him real bread that isn’t sweet in order to make HaMotzei and fulfill the mitzvah of Seudat Shabbat. <ref>However, Chazon Ovadyah (Brachot pg 55-60) rejects the arguments to be lenient as he holds that all of them are against Shulchan Aruch. Therefore, he rules that a Sephardic guest at an Ashkenazic home that is making HaMotzei on sweet challah should make sure to take with him regular challah in order to make Hamotzei and fulfill the mitzvah of Seudat Shabbat. Sh”t Avnei Yishfeh 3:16 (pg 34) quotes Chacham Ben Tzion Abba Shaul who said that a Sephardi who is a guest at an Ashkenazic home should make Mezonot. </ref> | # If a Sephardi is eating at an Ashkenazic family who is having sweet challah for Hamotzei on [[Shabbat]], ideally, one should eat 8 [[Measurements#Kezayit|Kezayitim]] of the challah in order to be able to make HaMotzei and Birkat HaMazon. Some authorities say that if that's difficult one should have 6 [[Measurements#Kezayit|Kezayitim]], and if that's difficult there is what to rely on to make a HaMotzei and Birkat HaMazon even if one only eats 1 [[Measurements#Kezayit|Kezayit]] of the sweet Challah. <ref> Vezot HaBracha (Chapter 4, pg 39) in name of Rav Mordechai Eliyahu and Rav Elyashiv paskening for Sephardim ruled that, ideally, one should eat 8 [[Measurements#Kezayit|Kezayitim]] of the challah in order to be able to make HaMotzei and Birkat HaMazon, however, if that’s difficult one should have 6 Kezaytim and if that’s difficult there’s what to rely on to make a HaMotzei and Birkat HaMazon even if one only eats one [[Measurements#Kezayit|Kezayit]] of the sweet Challah. Vezot HaBracha also quotes this from Rav Shlomo Levi in Kuntres Birkat HaPat pg 43. The reasons given for this ruling is first of all this definition of Pas HaBah Bekisnin is only one of three (S”A 168:7) and perhaps according to the other opinions it’s real bread. Also according to the Rama’s 168:7 explanation of this definition the Bracha would be HaMotzei. Lastly, according to the Bet Yosef since this sweet challah is used regularly for a meal the Bracha would be HaMotzei. Additionally, Birkat Hashem (Rav Moshe HaLevi vol 2, 2:40) holds that one should make HaMotzei on Sweet challah if one eats a little more than 2 Kezaytim unless it is made with a majority of sweeteners. </ref>However, some authorities argue that a Sephardi guest at an Ashkenazi family who is having sweet challah should make sure to take with him real bread that isn’t sweet in order to make HaMotzei and fulfill the mitzvah of Seudat [[Shabbat]]. <ref>However, Chazon Ovadyah (Brachot pg 55-60) rejects the arguments to be lenient as he holds that all of them are against Shulchan Aruch. Therefore, he rules that a Sephardic guest at an Ashkenazic home that is making HaMotzei on sweet challah should make sure to take with him regular challah in order to make Hamotzei and fulfill the mitzvah of Seudat [[Shabbat]]. Sh”t Avnei Yishfeh 3:16 (pg 34) quotes Chacham Ben Tzion Abba Shaul who said that a Sephardi who is a guest at an Ashkenazic home should make Mezonot. </ref> | ||
==Questions and Answers== | ==Questions and Answers== | ||
