Pat Haba Bikisnin: Difference between revisions
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# If a food is made with 100% apple juice according to some Ashkenazic poskim it is still hamotzei.<ref>Shulchan Halevi p. 299 writes that mezonot breads made from 100% apple juice and no water even if the juice isn't from concentrate it is still hamotzei since the apple juice doesn't have a strong taste and is like water.</ref> | # If a food is made with 100% apple juice according to some Ashkenazic poskim it is still hamotzei.<ref>Shulchan Halevi p. 299 writes that mezonot breads made from 100% apple juice and no water even if the juice isn't from concentrate it is still hamotzei since the apple juice doesn't have a strong taste and is like water.</ref> | ||
===Second Category: | ===Second Category: Pocket Filled Dough=== | ||
# Dough which is filled with sweeteners such as nuts, chocolate, or the like and is cooked together with the dough, and the taste is recognizable, the bracha is [[Mezonot]]. <ref>Shulchan Aruch 168:7, Mishna Brurah 168:33, Vezot HaBracha (pg 19, chapter 3) </ref> | # Dough which is filled with sweeteners such as nuts, chocolate, or the like and is cooked together with the dough, and the taste is recognizable, the bracha is [[Mezonot]]. <ref>Shulchan Aruch 168:7, Mishna Brurah 168:33, Vezot HaBracha (pg 19, chapter 3) </ref> | ||
# | # According to many poskim to be considered pat haba bikisnin, the filling must not be a “meal” food, for example meat, fish, cheese, or vegetables (unless the pastry is clearly made to be eaten as a snack). If it was filled with cheese or meat according to Ashkenazim if the food is always eaten as a snack the bracha is mezonot, but if it is eaten as a meal type food it is mezonot. According to Sephardim it is hamotzei.<ref> Shulchan Aruch O.C. 168:17 writes that dough baked with meat or cheese is considered hamotzei. The achronim ask why it isn't considered pat haba bkisnin. The Taz 168:6 in fact concludes that it should be pat haba bkisnin. However, the Magen Avraham 168:44 suggests that perhaps dough filled with a sweet filling is considered mezonot but dough filled with a meal type food such as cheese or meat makes the resulting food hamotzei. The Mishna Brurah (Biur Halacha 168:17 s.v. pashtida) makes a compromise; if the resulting dough with cheese or meat is considered a snack it is mezonot but if it is a meal type food it is hamotzei. Vezot Habracha ch. | ||
3 p. 20 agrees with the Biur Halacha. Chazon Ovadyah Brachot, pg 60-1, Or Letzion 2:12:5, and Birkat Hashem (vol 2, 2:62) rule like the Magen Avraham. See Ben Ish Chai Pinchas 20 and Halacha Brurah 168:49-50 who are concerned for the Taz.</ref> | |||
===Third Category: Cracker=== | ===Third Category: Cracker=== | ||
# If the dough is cooked into a food that's hard and crumbles the bracha is [[Mezonot]]. <ref> Shulchan Aruch 168:7. Vezot HaBracha (pg 19, chapter 3) points out that the Mishna Brurah (168:35) writes that it must be that it's usual to be eaten as a snack. </ref> | # If the dough is cooked into a food that's hard and crumbles the bracha is [[Mezonot]]. <ref> Shulchan Aruch 168:7. Vezot HaBracha (pg 19, chapter 3) points out that the Mishna Brurah (168:35) writes that it must be that it's usual to be eaten as a snack. </ref> | ||
# Pita chips are hamotzei since they were made to be a bread first and the leftover pitas are made into chips.<ref>[http://matzav.com/readers-matzav-pita-chips-bracha-issue/ Matzav.com] citing the OU, [http://berachot.org/Q+A/index.html#45 Berachot.org]</ref> | |||
===Cooked Mezonot=== | ===Cooked Mezonot=== | ||
# The following foods are called cooked [[Mezonot]], which don't resemble bread, and even if one eats a Shuir Seuda one makes a [[Mezonot]]: Farina, oatmeal, noodles, rice, soup nuts, farfel, couscous, blintzes, noodle kugel*, and wafers*. <Ref> Vezot HaBracha (Chapter 4, pg 26). There he mentions that majority of poskim hold that kugel is Tavshil [[Mezonot]] and similarly concerning wafers there’s some doubt in the poskim even though the primary halacha is that it’s Tavshil [[Mezonot]]. </ref> | # The following foods are called cooked [[Mezonot]], which don't resemble bread, and even if one eats a Shuir Seuda one makes a [[Mezonot]]: Farina, oatmeal, noodles, rice, soup nuts, farfel, couscous, blintzes, crepes, noodle kugel*, and wafers*. <Ref> Vezot HaBracha (Chapter 4, pg 26). There he mentions that majority of poskim hold that kugel is Tavshil [[Mezonot]] and similarly concerning wafers there’s some doubt in the poskim even though the primary halacha is that it’s Tavshil [[Mezonot]]. Halacha Brurah 168:28 writes that blintzes and crepes are so thin that they are mezonot even if eaten as a meal.</ref> | ||
# Most poskim hold that noodle kugel is considered a cooked mezonot and would always be mezonot even if one had a meal of it. However, some say that it is considered a baked mezonot and could become hamotzei if eaten as a meal. <ref>Regular noodles are certainly mezonot because they doesn't resemble bread since it is so thin and boiled (Rama 168:13). The only question is if it is later baked whether that makes it into pat ha'ba be'kisnin, which becomes hamotzei if eaten as a meal, or it remains a tavshil mezonot, which is mezonot even eaten as a meal. Noodle kugel is such an example of noodles that are boiled and then baked. Or Letzion 2:12:6 writes that noodle kugel is mezonot and remains a non-bread mezonot since it is still a thin dough and doesn't resemble bread. Additionally, Vezot Habracha (Birur Halacha 5, p. 218) quotes Rav Shlomo Zalman, Rav Sheinberg, and other poskim who consider noodle kugel to be a tavshil mezonot. Rav Shlomo Zalman added that it should remain a tavshil mezonot since the noodles are still recognizable. Additionally, Shaarei Bracha (p. 146) explains that it is a tavshil mezonot since it is fully cooked before it is baked. However, Rav Elyashiv is of the an opinion (quoted by Vezot HaBracha) that noodle kugel is a pat habah bekisnin since it is baked. His proof is the Mieri (Pesachim 36b s.v. iysa) who says that bread which is boiled and then baked is hamotzei. </ref> See also [[Bracha on Bagels]]. | # Most poskim hold that noodle kugel is considered a cooked mezonot and would always be mezonot even if one had a meal of it. However, some say that it is considered a baked mezonot and could become hamotzei if eaten as a meal. <ref>Regular noodles are certainly mezonot because they doesn't resemble bread since it is so thin and boiled (Rama 168:13). The only question is if it is later baked whether that makes it into pat ha'ba be'kisnin, which becomes hamotzei if eaten as a meal, or it remains a tavshil mezonot, which is mezonot even eaten as a meal. Noodle kugel is such an example of noodles that are boiled and then baked. Or Letzion 2:12:6 writes that noodle kugel is mezonot and remains a non-bread mezonot since it is still a thin dough and doesn't resemble bread. Additionally, Vezot Habracha (Birur Halacha 5, p. 218) quotes Rav Shlomo Zalman, Rav Sheinberg, and other poskim who consider noodle kugel to be a tavshil mezonot. Rav Shlomo Zalman added that it should remain a tavshil mezonot since the noodles are still recognizable. Additionally, Shaarei Bracha (p. 146) explains that it is a tavshil mezonot since it is fully cooked before it is baked. However, Rav Elyashiv is of the an opinion (quoted by Vezot HaBracha) that noodle kugel is a pat habah bekisnin since it is baked. His proof is the Mieri (Pesachim 36b s.v. iysa) who says that bread which is boiled and then baked is hamotzei. </ref> See also [[Bracha on Bagels]]. | ||
# A similar discussion could be had of lasagna. However, in conclusion the bracha is mezonot.<ref>Lasanga seems to have the same status as noodle kugel. In any event, Vezot HaBracha (Birur Halacha 5, p. 219) writes that the bracha on lasagna is mezonot since it doesn't resemble bread. He writes that even if it isn't boiled beforehand, it is mezonot since it doesn't resemble the look of bread at all. </ref> | # A similar discussion could be had of lasagna. However, in conclusion the bracha is mezonot.<ref>Lasanga seems to have the same status as noodle kugel. In any event, Vezot HaBracha (Birur Halacha 5, p. 219) writes that the bracha on lasagna is mezonot since it doesn't resemble bread. He writes that even if it isn't boiled beforehand, it is mezonot since it doesn't resemble the look of bread at all. </ref> | ||
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====Pancakes==== | ====Pancakes==== | ||
# If the pancakes were made with very little oil (just enough to prevent it from getting burned) then it is considered [[Pas Haba Bikisnin]]. If the pancakes were made with a significant amount of oil, there's a doubt whether it's considered [[Pas Haba Bekisnin]] or not and so if one intends to eat a the amount of a normal meal (see [[Making a meal on Mezonot]]) one should eat it in a meal. If the pancakes were deep fried then the bracha is [[Mezonot]] even if the amount of a normal meal is consumed. <ref> Veten Bracha (Halachos of Brochos by Rabbi Bodner pg 493-4, chapter 27) </ref> | # If the pancakes were made with very little oil (just enough to prevent it from getting burned) then it is considered [[Pas Haba Bikisnin]]. If the pancakes were made with a significant amount of oil, there's a doubt whether it's considered [[Pas Haba Bekisnin]] or not and so if one intends to eat a the amount of a normal meal (see [[Making a meal on Mezonot]]) one should eat it in a meal. If the pancakes were deep fried then the bracha is [[Mezonot]] even if the amount of a normal meal is consumed. <ref> Veten Bracha (Halachos of Brochos by Rabbi Bodner pg 493-4, chapter 27) </ref> | ||
# Some say that pancakes are always mezonot even if one has a meal of them since they are made with a liquid batter that spreads out when poured.<ref>Halacha Brurah 168:28</ref> | |||
====Toast==== | ====Toast==== | ||
# Toasted bread is hamotzi. <ref>Or Letzion 2:46:10 writes that toast is considered like regular bread and is hamotzei since it started as regular bread. Vezot Habracha ch. 3 p. 20 agrees.</ref> | # Toasted bread is hamotzi. <ref>Or Letzion 2:46:10 writes that toast is considered like regular bread and is hamotzei since it started as regular bread. Vezot Habracha ch. 3 p. 20 agrees.</ref> | ||
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# Soft pretzels according to some are hamotzei.<ref>Pri Megadim (E"A 168:39) writes that pretzels are hamotzei. Historically, pretzels were soft pretzels (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pretzel#History). Kaf Hachaim 168:59 quotes the Pri Megadim.</ref> Some hold that it is mezonot.<ref>Rabbi Forst (Laws of Brachos p. 238) writes that soft pretzels made with water might be hamotzei. The reason he is unsure is because they are made as a snack and some poskim hold that anything which is generally eaten as a snack is mezonot. This point is discussed at length in Kaf Hachaim 168:120 who concludes that it doesn't depend on whether it is usually eaten as a snack if it doesn't fit into the definitions of the rishonim.</ref> | # Soft pretzels according to some are hamotzei.<ref>Pri Megadim (E"A 168:39) writes that pretzels are hamotzei. Historically, pretzels were soft pretzels (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pretzel#History). Kaf Hachaim 168:59 quotes the Pri Megadim.</ref> Some hold that it is mezonot.<ref>Rabbi Forst (Laws of Brachos p. 238) writes that soft pretzels made with water might be hamotzei. The reason he is unsure is because they are made as a snack and some poskim hold that anything which is generally eaten as a snack is mezonot. This point is discussed at length in Kaf Hachaim 168:120 who concludes that it doesn't depend on whether it is usually eaten as a snack if it doesn't fit into the definitions of the rishonim.</ref> | ||
====Mezonot Rolls==== | ====Mezonot Rolls==== | ||
# Since '[[Mezonot]]' rolls are primarily eaten as part of a meal, many say that the bracha is [[HaMotzei]] (even if one eats a little) <ref> Vezot HaBracha (pg 19, chapter 19 and pg 386) in name of Rav Elyashiv, Rav Nissim Karelitz, and Or Letzion (Vol 2, 12:4). Many American rabbis ruled that the bracha is [[HaMotzei]] including Rabbi Avraham Bik, Rabbi Reuven Feinstein, Rabbi Moshe Heinemann, Rav Moshe Shtern, Rabbi Yisrael Belsky, Rabbi Avrham Bloomenkrantz, and Veten Bracha (Halachos of Brochos by Rabbi Bodner pg 498-9, chapter 27) in name of Rabbi Shlomo Zalman regarding America. </ref> and some say the bracha is [[Mezonot]] <ref> Vezot HaBracha (pg 18, chapter 3) in name of Rav Shlomo Zalman and the rabbis on the Badatz Edah Charedit </ref>. Therefore, one should eat it as part of a meal and make [[HaMotzei]]. <Ref> http://www.oukosher.org/index.php/common/article/the_mezonos_roll_is_it_a_piece_of_cake_by_rabbi_yaakov_luban/ is the OU's position based on a Teshuva of Rabbi Yisrael Belsky which is that if a [[Mezonot]] roll is eaten as part of the meal the bracha is [[HaMotzei]], see [[Making a meal on Mezonot]]. This is also the opinion of the Star-K http://www.star-k.org/kashrus/kk-issues-pashabah.htm. </ref> However, if that’s impossible, one has what to rely on to make a [[HaMotzei]], and one has what to rely on to make a [[Mezonot]]. <Ref> Vezot HaBracha (Birur 56, pg 352) </ref> | # Since '[[Mezonot]]' rolls are primarily eaten as part of a meal, many say that the bracha is [[HaMotzei]] (even if one eats a little) <ref> Vezot HaBracha (pg 19, chapter 19 and pg 386) in name of Rav Elyashiv, Rav Nissim Karelitz, and Or Letzion (Vol 2, 12:4). Many American rabbis ruled that the bracha is [[HaMotzei]] including Rabbi Avraham Bik, Rabbi Reuven Feinstein, Rabbi Moshe Heinemann, Rav Moshe Shtern, Rabbi Yisrael Belsky, Rabbi Avrham Bloomenkrantz, and Veten Bracha (Halachos of Brochos by Rabbi Bodner pg 498-9, chapter 27) in name of Rabbi Shlomo Zalman regarding America. </ref> and some say the bracha is [[Mezonot]] <ref> Vezot HaBracha (pg 18, chapter 3) in name of Rav Shlomo Zalman and the rabbis on the Badatz Edah Charedit </ref>. Therefore, one should eat it as part of a meal and make [[HaMotzei]]. <Ref> http://www.oukosher.org/index.php/common/article/the_mezonos_roll_is_it_a_piece_of_cake_by_rabbi_yaakov_luban/ is the OU's position based on a Teshuva of Rabbi Yisrael Belsky which is that if a [[Mezonot]] roll is eaten as part of the meal the bracha is [[HaMotzei]], see [[Making a meal on Mezonot]]. This is also the opinion of the Star-K http://www.star-k.org/kashrus/kk-issues-pashabah.htm. </ref> However, if that’s impossible, one has what to rely on to make a [[HaMotzei]], and one has what to rely on to make a [[Mezonot]]. <Ref> Vezot HaBracha (Birur 56, pg 352) </ref> | ||
# In a technical sense it isn't considered absolving oneself of a mitzvah to make bread into Pat Haba Bkisnin in order not to wash.<ref>Kaneh Bosem 3:10 explains that Brachot are a mitzvah relevant to the person and therefore there is no issue with making bread into something that is mezonot. He distinguishes it from [[Challah]] which is forbidden to make in some proportions in order to absolve oneself of the mitzvah to take Challah. That is a mitzvah that emanates from the dough itself. He also cites Tosfot Brachot 37b s.v. amar in which the practice of Rabbenu Dovid to make mezonot bread in order to rush to shiur is recorded.</ref> | |||
# For Sephardim the "mezonot" rolls are hamotzei if they taste like regular bread and mezonot if they taste sweet because of the juices that they are made with.<ref>[https://www.torahanytime.com/#/lectures?v=95205 Rav Yitzchak Yosef (Motzei Shabbat Vayera 5780 min 51)] stated that the halacha of pat haba bkisnin depends on whether a person tastes the flavor of the sweetness in the bread as he writes in Yalkut Yosef 168. He added that when he was on the airplane and was served a "mezonot" roll he tasted it and it was in fact hamotzei.</ref> | |||
====Pizza==== | ====Pizza==== | ||
# Regular pizza (no with fruit juice), according to Sephardim has the Bracha of [[HaMotzei]]. <Ref> | # Regular pizza (no with fruit juice), according to Sephardim has the Bracha of [[HaMotzei]]. <Ref> | ||
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====Matzah==== | ====Matzah==== | ||
# The Ashkenazic minhag is to make [[HaMotzei]] on Matzeh all year round <ref>Vezot HaBracha (pg 20), Tzitz Eliezer 11:19. [[Shevet Halevi]] 1: in the footnotes to SA 168:8 says one should be machmir and eat as part of a meal. Rav Tzvi | # The Ashkenazic minhag is to make [[HaMotzei]] on Matzeh all year round <ref>Vezot HaBracha (pg 20), Tzitz Eliezer 11:19. [[Shevet Halevi]] 1: in the footnotes to SA 168:8 says one should be machmir and eat as part of a meal. Rav Tzvi Pesach Frank Sh"t Har Tzvi OC 91 says on the small [[matza]]-like crackers to say [[mezonot]], and only say hamotzi if you are kovea seuda on [[matza]]. </ref> whereas the Sephardic minhag is to make [[Mezonot]] and [[Al HaMichya]] on [[Matzah]] all year round except for [[Pesach]] when one makes [[HaMotzei]] and [[Birkat HaMazon]].<ref> Chazon Ovadia [[Berachot]] page 61, Sh"t Yechave Daat 3:12, Sh"t Shemesh U'magen OC 1:34. This is in accordance with the definition of the Aruch s.v. Kesen, quoted by Bet Yosef 168:8 quoting Rav Hai Gaon that pat haba bikisnin is a hard, cracker-like bread, quoted in SA 168:8. [https://www.torahanytime.com/#/lectures?v=146562 Rav Dovid Yosef] notes that his father, Rav Ovadia Yosef, for long periods of time recited hamotzei on matzah because it was the only food he could eat because of his health, however, for everyone else the bracha is mezonot. | ||
* Rabbi Baruch Simon in Hamashbir v. 2 p. 42 writes that he heard directly from Chacham Ovadia that he would recite hamotzei without exempting it with bread. He cites that Siman Bracha 1 p. 18 by Rabbi Pinchas Raz writes explicitly the same thing. However, Rav Dovid Yosef in Orchot Maran 13:8 quotes that Rav Ovadia would exempt it with other bread but always held it is mezonot according to the strict law. He said he checked with him just a few months before he passed away. Rav Shimon Lalush (Mishnat Yosef 5776 Sivan-Tamuz p. 97) writes that Rav Yitzchak Yosef said that you can't extrapolate from Rav Ovadia did since for medical reasons he couldn't eat so much bread so he ate matzah and since it was his primary bread he made hamotzei.</ref> Nonetheless, Sephardic authorities add that (for all year-round besides [[Pesach]]) those who want to make [[HaMotzei]] on [[Matzah]] when eaten as a meal (even without 216 grams) can do so and that a God fearing person would always eat [[Matzah]] in a meal with real bread.<Ref> Vezot HaBracha (Chapter 3, pg 20), Yalkut Yosef (Kitzur S”A 168:4), Chazon Ovadyah ([[Brachot]] pg 61), Sh"t Yechave Daat 3:12, Chida in Machazik Beracha 158:5. </ref> | |||
# On Motzei [[Pesach]] before people buy back their chametz, the bracha on [[Matzah]] is still [[HaMotzei]]. <ref> Chazon Ovadyah ([[Brachot]] p 64) </ref> | # On Motzei [[Pesach]] before people buy back their chametz, the bracha on [[Matzah]] is still [[HaMotzei]]. <ref> Chazon Ovadyah ([[Brachot]] p 64) </ref> | ||
# If the last day of [[Pesach]] falls out on Friday, then the bracha on [[Matzah]] for the [[Shabbat]] immediately following [[Pesach]] is [[Hamotzei]].<ref>Or Letzion (vol 3:9:4) </ref> | # If the last day of [[Pesach]] falls out on Friday, then the bracha on [[Matzah]] for the [[Shabbat]] immediately following [[Pesach]] is [[Hamotzei]].<ref>Or Letzion (vol 3:9:4) </ref> | ||
