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Pat Haba Bikisnin: Difference between revisions
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===Third Category: Cracker=== | ===Third Category: Cracker=== | ||
# If the dough is cooked into a food that's hard and crumbles the bracha is [[Mezonot]]. <ref> Shulchan Aruch 168:7. Vezot HaBracha (pg 19, chapter 3) points out that the Mishna Brurah (168:35) writes that it must be that it's usual to be eaten as a snack. </ref> | # If the dough is cooked into a food that's hard and crumbles the bracha is [[Mezonot]]. <ref> Shulchan Aruch 168:7. Vezot HaBracha (pg 19, chapter 3) points out that the Mishna Brurah (168:35) writes that it must be that it's usual to be eaten as a snack. </ref> | ||
# Pita chips are hamotzei since they were made to be a bread first and the leftover pitas are made into chips.<ref>[http://matzav.com/readers-matzav-pita-chips-bracha-issue/ Matzav.com] citing the OU, [http://berachot.org/Q+A/index.html#45 Berachot.org]</ref> | |||
===Cooked Mezonot=== | ===Cooked Mezonot=== | ||
# The following foods are called cooked [[Mezonot]], which don't resemble bread, and even if one eats a Shuir Seuda one makes a [[Mezonot]]: Farina, oatmeal, noodles, rice, soup nuts, farfel, couscous, blintzes, noodle kugel*, and wafers*. <Ref> Vezot HaBracha (Chapter 4, pg 26). There he mentions that majority of poskim hold that kugel is Tavshil [[Mezonot]] and similarly concerning wafers there’s some doubt in the poskim even though the primary halacha is that it’s Tavshil [[Mezonot]]. </ref> | # The following foods are called cooked [[Mezonot]], which don't resemble bread, and even if one eats a Shuir Seuda one makes a [[Mezonot]]: Farina, oatmeal, noodles, rice, soup nuts, farfel, couscous, blintzes, crepes, noodle kugel*, and wafers*. <Ref> Vezot HaBracha (Chapter 4, pg 26). There he mentions that majority of poskim hold that kugel is Tavshil [[Mezonot]] and similarly concerning wafers there’s some doubt in the poskim even though the primary halacha is that it’s Tavshil [[Mezonot]]. Halacha Brurah 168:28 writes that blintzes and crepes are so thin that they are mezonot even if eaten as a meal.</ref> | ||
# Most poskim hold that noodle kugel is considered a cooked mezonot and would always be mezonot even if one had a meal of it. However, some say that it is considered a baked mezonot and could become hamotzei if eaten as a meal. <ref>Regular noodles are certainly mezonot because they doesn't resemble bread since it is so thin and boiled (Rama 168:13). The only question is if it is later baked whether that makes it into pat ha'ba be'kisnin, which becomes hamotzei if eaten as a meal, or it remains a tavshil mezonot, which is mezonot even eaten as a meal. Noodle kugel is such an example of noodles that are boiled and then baked. Or Letzion 2:12:6 writes that noodle kugel is mezonot and remains a non-bread mezonot since it is still a thin dough and doesn't resemble bread. Additionally, Vezot Habracha (Birur Halacha 5, p. 218) quotes Rav Shlomo Zalman, Rav Sheinberg, and other poskim who consider noodle kugel to be a tavshil mezonot. Rav Shlomo Zalman added that it should remain a tavshil mezonot since the noodles are still recognizable. Additionally, Shaarei Bracha (p. 146) explains that it is a tavshil mezonot since it is fully cooked before it is baked. However, Rav Elyashiv is of the an opinion (quoted by Vezot HaBracha) that noodle kugel is a pat habah bekisnin since it is baked. His proof is the Mieri (Pesachim 36b s.v. iysa) who says that bread which is boiled and then baked is hamotzei. </ref> See also [[Bracha on Bagels]]. | # Most poskim hold that noodle kugel is considered a cooked mezonot and would always be mezonot even if one had a meal of it. However, some say that it is considered a baked mezonot and could become hamotzei if eaten as a meal. <ref>Regular noodles are certainly mezonot because they doesn't resemble bread since it is so thin and boiled (Rama 168:13). The only question is if it is later baked whether that makes it into pat ha'ba be'kisnin, which becomes hamotzei if eaten as a meal, or it remains a tavshil mezonot, which is mezonot even eaten as a meal. Noodle kugel is such an example of noodles that are boiled and then baked. Or Letzion 2:12:6 writes that noodle kugel is mezonot and remains a non-bread mezonot since it is still a thin dough and doesn't resemble bread. Additionally, Vezot Habracha (Birur Halacha 5, p. 218) quotes Rav Shlomo Zalman, Rav Sheinberg, and other poskim who consider noodle kugel to be a tavshil mezonot. Rav Shlomo Zalman added that it should remain a tavshil mezonot since the noodles are still recognizable. Additionally, Shaarei Bracha (p. 146) explains that it is a tavshil mezonot since it is fully cooked before it is baked. However, Rav Elyashiv is of the an opinion (quoted by Vezot HaBracha) that noodle kugel is a pat habah bekisnin since it is baked. His proof is the Mieri (Pesachim 36b s.v. iysa) who says that bread which is boiled and then baked is hamotzei. </ref> See also [[Bracha on Bagels]]. | ||
# A similar discussion could be had of lasagna. However, in conclusion the bracha is mezonot.<ref>Lasanga seems to have the same status as noodle kugel. In any event, Vezot HaBracha (Birur Halacha 5, p. 219) writes that the bracha on lasagna is mezonot since it doesn't resemble bread. He writes that even if it isn't boiled beforehand, it is mezonot since it doesn't resemble the look of bread at all. </ref> | # A similar discussion could be had of lasagna. However, in conclusion the bracha is mezonot.<ref>Lasanga seems to have the same status as noodle kugel. In any event, Vezot HaBracha (Birur Halacha 5, p. 219) writes that the bracha on lasagna is mezonot since it doesn't resemble bread. He writes that even if it isn't boiled beforehand, it is mezonot since it doesn't resemble the look of bread at all. </ref> | ||
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# Soft pretzels according to some are hamotzei.<ref>Pri Megadim (E"A 168:39) writes that pretzels are hamotzei. Historically, pretzels were soft pretzels (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pretzel#History). Kaf Hachaim 168:59 quotes the Pri Megadim.</ref> Some hold that it is mezonot.<ref>Rabbi Forst (Laws of Brachos p. 238) writes that soft pretzels made with water might be hamotzei. The reason he is unsure is because they are made as a snack and some poskim hold that anything which is generally eaten as a snack is mezonot. This point is discussed at length in Kaf Hachaim 168:120 who concludes that it doesn't depend on whether it is usually eaten as a snack if it doesn't fit into the definitions of the rishonim.</ref> | # Soft pretzels according to some are hamotzei.<ref>Pri Megadim (E"A 168:39) writes that pretzels are hamotzei. Historically, pretzels were soft pretzels (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pretzel#History). Kaf Hachaim 168:59 quotes the Pri Megadim.</ref> Some hold that it is mezonot.<ref>Rabbi Forst (Laws of Brachos p. 238) writes that soft pretzels made with water might be hamotzei. The reason he is unsure is because they are made as a snack and some poskim hold that anything which is generally eaten as a snack is mezonot. This point is discussed at length in Kaf Hachaim 168:120 who concludes that it doesn't depend on whether it is usually eaten as a snack if it doesn't fit into the definitions of the rishonim.</ref> | ||
====Mezonot Rolls==== | ====Mezonot Rolls==== | ||
# Since '[[Mezonot]]' rolls are primarily eaten as part of a meal, many say that the bracha is [[HaMotzei]] (even if one eats a little) <ref> Vezot HaBracha (pg 19, chapter 19 and pg 386) in name of Rav Elyashiv, Rav Nissim Karelitz, and Or Letzion (Vol 2, 12:4). Many American rabbis ruled that the bracha is [[HaMotzei]] including Rabbi Avraham Bik, Rabbi Reuven Feinstein, Rabbi Moshe Heinemann, Rav Moshe Shtern, Rabbi Yisrael Belsky, Rabbi Avrham Bloomenkrantz, and Veten Bracha (Halachos of Brochos by Rabbi Bodner pg 498-9, chapter 27) in name of Rabbi Shlomo Zalman regarding America. </ref> and some say the bracha is [[Mezonot]] <ref> Vezot HaBracha (pg 18, chapter 3) in name of Rav Shlomo Zalman and the rabbis on the Badatz Edah Charedit </ref>. Therefore, one should eat it as part of a meal and make [[HaMotzei]]. <Ref> http://www.oukosher.org/index.php/common/article/the_mezonos_roll_is_it_a_piece_of_cake_by_rabbi_yaakov_luban/ is the OU's position based on a Teshuva of Rabbi Yisrael Belsky which is that if a [[Mezonot]] roll is eaten as part of the meal the bracha is [[HaMotzei]], see [[Making a meal on Mezonot]]. This is also the opinion of the Star-K http://www.star-k.org/kashrus/kk-issues-pashabah.htm. </ref> However, if that’s impossible, one has what to rely on to make a [[HaMotzei]], and one has what to rely on to make a [[Mezonot]]. <Ref> Vezot HaBracha (Birur 56, pg 352) </ref> | # Since '[[Mezonot]]' rolls are primarily eaten as part of a meal, many say that the bracha is [[HaMotzei]] (even if one eats a little) <ref> Vezot HaBracha (pg 19, chapter 19 and pg 386) in name of Rav Elyashiv, Rav Nissim Karelitz, and Or Letzion (Vol 2, 12:4). Many American rabbis ruled that the bracha is [[HaMotzei]] including Rabbi Avraham Bik, Rabbi Reuven Feinstein, Rabbi Moshe Heinemann, Rav Moshe Shtern, Rabbi Yisrael Belsky, Rabbi Avrham Bloomenkrantz, and Veten Bracha (Halachos of Brochos by Rabbi Bodner pg 498-9, chapter 27) in name of Rabbi Shlomo Zalman regarding America. </ref> and some say the bracha is [[Mezonot]] <ref> Vezot HaBracha (pg 18, chapter 3) in name of Rav Shlomo Zalman and the rabbis on the Badatz Edah Charedit </ref>. Therefore, one should eat it as part of a meal and make [[HaMotzei]]. <Ref> http://www.oukosher.org/index.php/common/article/the_mezonos_roll_is_it_a_piece_of_cake_by_rabbi_yaakov_luban/ is the OU's position based on a Teshuva of Rabbi Yisrael Belsky which is that if a [[Mezonot]] roll is eaten as part of the meal the bracha is [[HaMotzei]], see [[Making a meal on Mezonot]]. This is also the opinion of the Star-K http://www.star-k.org/kashrus/kk-issues-pashabah.htm. </ref> However, if that’s impossible, one has what to rely on to make a [[HaMotzei]], and one has what to rely on to make a [[Mezonot]]. <Ref> Vezot HaBracha (Birur 56, pg 352) </ref> | ||
# In a technical sense it isn't considered absolving oneself of a mitzvah to make bread into Pat Haba Bkisnin in order not to wash.<ref>Kaneh Bosem 3:10 explains that Brachot are a mitzvah relevant to the person and therefore there is no issue with making bread into something that is mezonot. He distinguishes it from [[Challah]] which is forbidden to make in some proportions in order to absolve oneself of the mitzvah to take Challah. That is a mitzvah that emanates from the dough itself. He also cites Tosfot Brachot 37b s.v. amar in which the practice of Rabbenu Dovid to make mezonot bread in order to rush to shiur is recorded.</ref> | |||
# For Sephardim the "mezonot" rolls are hamotzei if they taste like regular bread and mezonot if they taste sweet because of the juices that they are made with.<ref>[https://www.torahanytime.com/#/lectures?v=95205 Rav Yitzchak Yosef (Motzei Shabbat Vayera 5780 min 51)] stated that the halacha of pat haba bkisnin depends on whether a person tastes the flavor of the sweetness in the bread as he writes in Yalkut Yosef 168. He added that when he was on the airplane and was served a "mezonot" roll he tasted it and it was in fact hamotzei.</ref> | |||
====Pizza==== | ====Pizza==== | ||
# Regular pizza (no with fruit juice), according to Sephardim has the Bracha of [[HaMotzei]]. <Ref> | # Regular pizza (no with fruit juice), according to Sephardim has the Bracha of [[HaMotzei]]. <Ref> | ||
