16,374
edits
Pat Haba Bikisnin: Difference between revisions
From Halachipedia
→Third Category: Cracker
| (18 intermediate revisions by the same user not shown) | |||
| Line 12: | Line 12: | ||
* The opinion of Rav Nachman and Shmuel in Gemara [[Brachot]] 42b is the Bracha on [[Pas HaBah Bekisnin]] is [[Mezonot]] when eaten as a snack and [[HaMotzei]] when eaten as a meal. Rashi ([[Brachot]] 41b s.v. Pas) and the Rif 30a holds that if one eats [[Pas HaBah Bekisnin]] as a snack there’s either no [[Bracha Achrona]] at all or there’s only a [[Boreh Nefashot]] (see Rabbenu Yonah’s (29b s.v. Trisar) two explanations of the Rif and Tosfot’s (D”H Elah) explanation of Rashi). However, Tosfot (41b s.v. Elah) explains that the [[Bracha Achrona]] on [[Pas HaBah Bekisnin]] is [[Al HaMichya]] (if one doesn’t make it into a meal). The Rosh 6:30, Rashba s.v. Rav Huna, and Rambam ([[Brachot]] 3:9) agree with Tosfot and the Tur and S”A 168:6 codify this as halacha that for a snack one makes [[Mezonot]] and [[Al HaMichya]] and a meal one makes [[HaMotzei]] and [[Birkat HaMazon]]. | * The opinion of Rav Nachman and Shmuel in Gemara [[Brachot]] 42b is the Bracha on [[Pas HaBah Bekisnin]] is [[Mezonot]] when eaten as a snack and [[HaMotzei]] when eaten as a meal. Rashi ([[Brachot]] 41b s.v. Pas) and the Rif 30a holds that if one eats [[Pas HaBah Bekisnin]] as a snack there’s either no [[Bracha Achrona]] at all or there’s only a [[Boreh Nefashot]] (see Rabbenu Yonah’s (29b s.v. Trisar) two explanations of the Rif and Tosfot’s (D”H Elah) explanation of Rashi). However, Tosfot (41b s.v. Elah) explains that the [[Bracha Achrona]] on [[Pas HaBah Bekisnin]] is [[Al HaMichya]] (if one doesn’t make it into a meal). The Rosh 6:30, Rashba s.v. Rav Huna, and Rambam ([[Brachot]] 3:9) agree with Tosfot and the Tur and S”A 168:6 codify this as halacha that for a snack one makes [[Mezonot]] and [[Al HaMichya]] and a meal one makes [[HaMotzei]] and [[Birkat HaMazon]]. | ||
'''What is considered a meal?''' | '''What is considered a meal?''' | ||
* The Bet Yosef 168:6 quoting the Shibolei HaLeket (Siman 159), Magen Avraham 168:13, and Chaye Adam 54:14 in name of the Gra hold that the amount of meal for this halacha is the amount people normally eat at a regular meal in the morning and evening. (Mishna Brurah 168:24 and Shaar HaTziyun 19 also quote the Sefer Eshkol and Shagat Aryeh). However, the Birkei Yosef | * The Bet Yosef 168:6 quoting the Shibolei HaLeket (Siman 159), Magen Avraham 168:13, and Chaye Adam 54:14 in name of the Gra hold that the amount of meal for this halacha is the amount people normally eat at a regular meal in the morning and evening. (Mishna Brurah 168:24 and Shaar HaTziyun 19 also quote the Sefer Eshkol and Shagat Aryeh). However, the Birkei Yosef 168:4 and Kaf HaChaim 168:45 argue that the amount of a meal in this context is the same as a meal for Eruv Chatzerot which is either 3 or 4 [[KeBaytzim]]. | ||
* Some authorities (Machatzis Ha’shekel S”A O.C. 168:13) derive it from the halacha of eiruv t’chumin (4 eggs), and some (S”A Harav 168:8) maintain that a “normal meal” should be calculated according to the manna that the Jews ate in the desert (21 eggs). | * Some authorities (Machatzis Ha’shekel S”A O.C. 168:13) derive it from the halacha of eiruv t’chumin (4 eggs), and some (S”A Harav 168:8) maintain that a “normal meal” should be calculated according to the manna that the Jews ate in the desert (21 eggs). | ||
* Ashkenazim: Most poskim (Gra 168, Mishna Brurah 168:24, Igros Moshe O.C. 3:32) maintain that the amount is measured by the normal eating habits of each country. The Mishna Brurah 168:24 rules that the halacha follows the opinion that a meal is considered by a regular meal people eat but adds that it's proper to be strict for those who are strict to require 4 [[KeBaytzim]] (meaning, that preferably one should only eat less than 8 [[Measurements#Kezayit|Kezayitim]] or more than the amount of a regular meal, Vezot HaBracha pg 29). VeZot HaBracha (chap 4, pg 31) writes that according to his calculation for a regular person for regular cake if one eats less than 230 grams that is considered a snack, if one eat more than 280 grams that is certainly a meal. He continues that if one did eat in between 8 [[Measurements#Kezayit|Kezayitim]] and a certain meal, if one is not full make [[Al HaMichya]] and if one is full make [[Birkat HaMazon]], yet, in such a case it’s preferable to hear [[Birkat HaMazon]] (from someone who’s obligated to make [[Birkat HaMazon]]) or to eat bread (making [[HaMotzei]] and [[Birkat HaMazon]]). Halachos of [[Brachos]] (Rabbi Bodner, chap 27, pg 488-9) agrees to the above halachot and adds that if one wishes to have more than 8 [[Measurements#Kezayit|Kezayitim]] and less than the amount of a regular meal one may do so but one should first wash and make [[Hamotzei]] on a [[Kezayit]] of bread. | * Ashkenazim: Most poskim (Gra 168, Mishna Brurah 168:24, Igros Moshe O.C. 3:32) maintain that the amount is measured by the normal eating habits of each country. The Mishna Brurah 168:24 rules that the halacha follows the opinion that a meal is considered by a regular meal people eat but adds that it's proper to be strict for those who are strict to require 4 [[KeBaytzim]] (meaning, that preferably one should only eat less than 8 [[Measurements#Kezayit|Kezayitim]] or more than the amount of a regular meal, Vezot HaBracha pg 29). VeZot HaBracha (chap 4, pg 31) writes that according to his calculation for a regular person for regular cake if one eats less than 230 grams that is considered a snack, if one eat more than 280 grams that is certainly a meal. He continues that if one did eat in between 8 [[Measurements#Kezayit|Kezayitim]] and a certain meal, if one is not full make [[Al HaMichya]] and if one is full make [[Birkat HaMazon]], yet, in such a case it’s preferable to hear [[Birkat HaMazon]] (from someone who’s obligated to make [[Birkat HaMazon]]) or to eat bread (making [[HaMotzei]] and [[Birkat HaMazon]]). Halachos of [[Brachos]] (Rabbi Bodner, chap 27, pg 488-9) agrees to the above halachot and adds that if one wishes to have more than 8 [[Measurements#Kezayit|Kezayitim]] and less than the amount of a regular meal one may do so but one should first wash and make [[Hamotzei]] on a [[Kezayit]] of bread. | ||
| Line 72: | Line 72: | ||
# The following foods are called Pas HaBah BeKisnin and if one eats a Shiur Seuda one must make a [[HaMotzei]]: Borekas, Hotdog in pastry, cake, cookies, pretzels, and crackers. <Ref> Vezot HaBracha (pg 26, chapter 3). see also Rabbi Forst, The Laws of Brachos p. 235 </ref> | # The following foods are called Pas HaBah BeKisnin and if one eats a Shiur Seuda one must make a [[HaMotzei]]: Borekas, Hotdog in pastry, cake, cookies, pretzels, and crackers. <Ref> Vezot HaBracha (pg 26, chapter 3). see also Rabbi Forst, The Laws of Brachos p. 235 </ref> | ||
===First Category: Cake=== | ===First Category: Cake=== | ||
# According to Ashkenazim, if there’s a majority (51%) of sweeteners such as fruit juice, oil, egg, margarine, sugar, honey, or the like in comparison to the amount of water added to the flour, then the Bracha is [[mezonot]]. <Ref> Rama 168:7 | # According to Ashkenazim, if there’s a majority (51%) of sweeteners such as fruit juice, oil, egg, margarine, sugar, honey, or the like in comparison to the amount of water added to the flour, then the Bracha is [[mezonot]].<Ref> Rama 168:7. Mishna Brurah 168:33 writes that the minhag of Ashkenazim is to recite mezonot on any cake that has a majority of sweet ingredients compared to the water. That is, the juice or oil as a part of the total liquid ingredients has to me less than 50%. | ||
# According to Sephardim, if the taste of the sweeteners is recognizable in the dough, then the Bracha is [[mezonot]]. <Ref> | * The Even Haozer 168:13 is very bothered how the menachot could be hamotzei (Brachot 37b) if they are made with oil. He concludes that since only a Log of oil is added to a Isaron of flour that is still bread and not Pat Haba Bikisnin, even though the taste of the oil was discernible. Magen Giborim (Shiltei Giborim 168:23) agrees with his proof but points out that this fits with the Rama since the oil is a minority. He adds that even the Bet Yosef would answer that menachot are hamotzei since they are usually eaten as a meal and that is main criteria in deciding what is hamotzei. [In precise measurements of the menachot, each Log was 4 Reviyot which is 6 Kebaytzim and the Isaron was 43.2 Kebaytzim, yielding a ratio of 6:43.2 = 13.9% oil compared to flour. But if we compare the oil to water ratio as the Mishna Brurah 168:33 and Vezot Habracha p. 17 does, then we would conclude with a ratio of 20% or more of oil compared to total liquids. For each cup of flour there's 0.6 cups liquids to knead it (https://lifehacker.com/how-to-free-yourself-from-recipes-with-a-few-golden-coo-1450617561). Therefore, if 43.2 Kebeytzim of flour need 25.9 (=43.2*0.6) Kbeytzim of liquid to knead it and 6 Kbeytzim of those are oil then you have a 23% (=6/25.9) oil as part of the total liquid. If a lower ratio of flour to water is used such as 0.33 cups of water per cup of flour (https://www.tasteofhome.com/recipes/basic-homemade-bread, https://www.kingarthurflour.com/recipes/hearth-bread-recipe) then the oil is 42% of the total liquid. Either way these measurements yield less than 50% of oil in the total liquid.]</ref> However, water mixed into the sweeteners such as diluted fruited juice or margarine (usually 15% water) isn’t included in the calculations of sweeteners to water. <Ref>VeZot HaBracha (pg 17) in name of [[Rabbi Shlomo Zalman Auerbach]] and Sh”t Shevet HaLevi 9:44 </ref> | ||
# According to Sephardim, if the taste of the sweeteners is recognizable in the dough, then the Bracha is [[mezonot]]. <Ref>Shulchan Aruch 168:7, Kaf Hachaim 168:58, Yalkut Yosef ([[Brachot]] pg 129, Kitzur Shulchan Aruch 168:7), Chazon Ovadia (Brachot p. 55) </ref> Even if the majority is sweeteners in comparison to the water unless the taste is recognizable the bracha is Hamotzei.<ref>Chazon Ovadia (Brachot p. 60) writes that the criteria for Sephardim is whether the taste of the sweeteners is recognizable whether or not there is a majority of sweeteners or not. This is in opposition to the opinion of the Daat Torah 168:7 who writes that if there is a majority of sweet fruit juice in comparison to the water it is mezonot even if the taste isn't recognizable. Therefore, Chazon Ovadia concludes that pizza made with milk and water is hamotzei unless the milk is tasted in the dough. Halacha Brurah 168:22 agrees.</ref> | |||
# If a food is made with 100% apple juice according to some Ashkenazic poskim it is still hamotzei.<ref>Shulchan Halevi p. 299 writes that mezonot breads made from 100% apple juice and no water even if the juice isn't from concentrate it is still hamotzei since the apple juice doesn't have a strong taste and is like water.</ref> | |||
===Second Category: | ===Second Category: Pocket Filled Dough=== | ||
# Dough which is filled with sweeteners such as nuts, chocolate, or the like and is cooked together with the dough, and the taste is recognizable, the bracha is [[Mezonot]]. <ref>Shulchan Aruch 168:7, Mishna Brurah 168:33, Vezot HaBracha (pg 19, chapter 3) </ref> | # Dough which is filled with sweeteners such as nuts, chocolate, or the like and is cooked together with the dough, and the taste is recognizable, the bracha is [[Mezonot]]. <ref>Shulchan Aruch 168:7, Mishna Brurah 168:33, Vezot HaBracha (pg 19, chapter 3) </ref> | ||
# | # According to many poskim to be considered pat haba bikisnin, the filling must not be a “meal” food, for example meat, fish, cheese, or vegetables (unless the pastry is clearly made to be eaten as a snack). If it was filled with cheese or meat according to Ashkenazim if the food is always eaten as a snack the bracha is mezonot, but if it is eaten as a meal type food it is mezonot. According to Sephardim it is hamotzei.<ref> Shulchan Aruch O.C. 168:17 writes that dough baked with meat or cheese is considered hamotzei. The achronim ask why it isn't considered pat haba bkisnin. The Taz 168:6 in fact concludes that it should be pat haba bkisnin. However, the Magen Avraham 168:44 suggests that perhaps dough filled with a sweet filling is considered mezonot but dough filled with a meal type food such as cheese or meat makes the resulting food hamotzei. The Mishna Brurah (Biur Halacha 168:17 s.v. pashtida) makes a compromise; if the resulting dough with cheese or meat is considered a snack it is mezonot but if it is a meal type food it is hamotzei. Vezot Habracha ch. | ||
3 p. 20 agrees with the Biur Halacha. Chazon Ovadyah Brachot, pg 60-1, Or Letzion 2:12:5, and Birkat Hashem (vol 2, 2:62) rule like the Magen Avraham. See Ben Ish Chai Pinchas 20 and Halacha Brurah 168:49-50 who are concerned for the Taz.</ref> | |||
===Third Category: Cracker=== | ===Third Category: Cracker=== | ||
# If the dough is cooked into a food that's hard and crumbles the bracha is [[Mezonot]]. <ref> Shulchan Aruch 168:7. Vezot HaBracha (pg 19, chapter 3) points out that the Mishna Brurah (168:35) writes that it must be that it's usual to be eaten as a snack. </ref> | # If the dough is cooked into a food that's hard and crumbles the bracha is [[Mezonot]]. <ref> Shulchan Aruch 168:7. Vezot HaBracha (pg 19, chapter 3) points out that the Mishna Brurah (168:35) writes that it must be that it's usual to be eaten as a snack. </ref> | ||
# Pita chips are hamotzei since they were made to be a bread first and the leftover pitas are made into chips.<ref>[http://matzav.com/readers-matzav-pita-chips-bracha-issue/ Matzav.com] citing the OU, [http://berachot.org/Q+A/index.html#45 Berachot.org]</ref> | |||
===Cooked Mezonot=== | ===Cooked Mezonot=== | ||
# The following foods are called cooked [[Mezonot]], which don't resemble bread, and even if one eats a Shuir Seuda one makes a [[Mezonot]]: Farina, oatmeal, noodles, rice, soup nuts, farfel, couscous, blintzes, noodle kugel*, and wafers*. <Ref> Vezot HaBracha (Chapter 4, pg 26). There he mentions that majority of poskim hold that kugel is Tavshil [[Mezonot]] and similarly concerning wafers there’s some doubt in the poskim even though the primary halacha is that it’s Tavshil [[Mezonot]]. </ref> | # The following foods are called cooked [[Mezonot]], which don't resemble bread, and even if one eats a Shuir Seuda one makes a [[Mezonot]]: Farina, oatmeal, noodles, rice, soup nuts, farfel, couscous, blintzes, crepes, noodle kugel*, and wafers*. <Ref> Vezot HaBracha (Chapter 4, pg 26). There he mentions that majority of poskim hold that kugel is Tavshil [[Mezonot]] and similarly concerning wafers there’s some doubt in the poskim even though the primary halacha is that it’s Tavshil [[Mezonot]]. Halacha Brurah 168:28 writes that blintzes and crepes are so thin that they are mezonot even if eaten as a meal.</ref> | ||
# Most poskim hold that noodle kugel is considered a cooked mezonot and would always be mezonot even if one had a meal of it. However, some say that it is considered a baked mezonot and could become hamotzei if eaten as a meal. <ref>Regular noodles are certainly mezonot because they doesn't resemble bread since it is so thin and boiled (Rama 168:13). The only question is if it is later baked whether that makes it into pat ha'ba be'kisnin, which becomes hamotzei if eaten as a meal, or it remains a tavshil mezonot, which is mezonot even eaten as a meal. Noodle kugel is such an example of noodles that are boiled and then baked. Or Letzion 2:12:6 writes that noodle kugel is mezonot and remains a non-bread mezonot since it is still a thin dough and doesn't resemble bread. Additionally, Vezot Habracha (Birur Halacha 5, p. 218) quotes Rav Shlomo Zalman, Rav Sheinberg, and other poskim who consider noodle kugel to be a tavshil mezonot. Rav Shlomo Zalman added that it should remain a tavshil mezonot since the noodles are still recognizable. Additionally, Shaarei Bracha (p. 146) explains that it is a tavshil mezonot since it is fully cooked before it is baked. However, Rav Elyashiv is of the an opinion (quoted by Vezot HaBracha) that noodle kugel is a pat habah bekisnin since it is baked. His proof is the Mieri (Pesachim 36b s.v. iysa) who says that bread which is boiled and then baked is hamotzei. </ref> See also [[Bracha on Bagels]]. | # Most poskim hold that noodle kugel is considered a cooked mezonot and would always be mezonot even if one had a meal of it. However, some say that it is considered a baked mezonot and could become hamotzei if eaten as a meal. <ref>Regular noodles are certainly mezonot because they doesn't resemble bread since it is so thin and boiled (Rama 168:13). The only question is if it is later baked whether that makes it into pat ha'ba be'kisnin, which becomes hamotzei if eaten as a meal, or it remains a tavshil mezonot, which is mezonot even eaten as a meal. Noodle kugel is such an example of noodles that are boiled and then baked. Or Letzion 2:12:6 writes that noodle kugel is mezonot and remains a non-bread mezonot since it is still a thin dough and doesn't resemble bread. Additionally, Vezot Habracha (Birur Halacha 5, p. 218) quotes Rav Shlomo Zalman, Rav Sheinberg, and other poskim who consider noodle kugel to be a tavshil mezonot. Rav Shlomo Zalman added that it should remain a tavshil mezonot since the noodles are still recognizable. Additionally, Shaarei Bracha (p. 146) explains that it is a tavshil mezonot since it is fully cooked before it is baked. However, Rav Elyashiv is of the an opinion (quoted by Vezot HaBracha) that noodle kugel is a pat habah bekisnin since it is baked. His proof is the Mieri (Pesachim 36b s.v. iysa) who says that bread which is boiled and then baked is hamotzei. </ref> See also [[Bracha on Bagels]]. | ||
# A similar discussion could be had of lasagna. However, in conclusion the bracha is mezonot.<ref>Lasanga seems to have the same status as noodle kugel. In any event, Vezot HaBracha (Birur Halacha 5, p. 219) writes that the bracha on lasagna is mezonot since it doesn't resemble bread. He writes that even if it isn't boiled beforehand, it is mezonot since it doesn't resemble the look of bread at all. </ref> | # A similar discussion could be had of lasagna. However, in conclusion the bracha is mezonot.<ref>Lasanga seems to have the same status as noodle kugel. In any event, Vezot HaBracha (Birur Halacha 5, p. 219) writes that the bracha on lasagna is mezonot since it doesn't resemble bread. He writes that even if it isn't boiled beforehand, it is mezonot since it doesn't resemble the look of bread at all. </ref> | ||
| Line 103: | Line 107: | ||
* '''Conclusion''': If wraps and tortillas are made with a thick dough it seems that the bracha should be [[Hamotzei]] even if it has a thin shape. [http://www.ykr.org.il/modules/Ask/answer/8705 An article on ykr.org.il] quotes Or Torah (Iss. 552, 5773 Tamuz 118:17) as saying that wheat tortilla is [[Hamotzei]]. Similarly, [http://www.kipa.co.il/ask/show/232461-%D7%91%D7%A8%D7%9B%D7%94-%D7%A2%D7%9C-%D7%98%D7%95%D7%A8%D7%98%D7%99%D7%94 Kipa.co.il] writes that the bracha on wraps is [[Hamotzei]] (repeated [http://www.kipa.co.il/ask/show/256620-%D7%98%D7%95%D7%A8%D7%98%D7%99%D7%94 here] as well). The same can be found on [http://www.toraland.org.il/%D7%A9%D7%90%D7%9C%D7%95%D7%AA-%D7%95%D7%AA%D7%A9%D7%95%D7%91%D7%95%D7%AA/%D7%90%D7%9E%D7%95%D7%A0%D7%94-%D7%95%D7%94%D7%9C%D7%9B%D7%94/%D7%91%D7%A8%D7%9B%D7%95%D7%AA/%D7%98%D7%95%D7%A8%D7%98%D7%99%D7%95%D7%AA.aspx toraland.org.il]. The [http://oukosher.org/guide-to-blessings/ OU Guide to Brachos] writes that wraps are [[Hamotzei]] when eaten together with the filling but otherwise are [[mezonot]]. See there for the reasoning. </ref> | * '''Conclusion''': If wraps and tortillas are made with a thick dough it seems that the bracha should be [[Hamotzei]] even if it has a thin shape. [http://www.ykr.org.il/modules/Ask/answer/8705 An article on ykr.org.il] quotes Or Torah (Iss. 552, 5773 Tamuz 118:17) as saying that wheat tortilla is [[Hamotzei]]. Similarly, [http://www.kipa.co.il/ask/show/232461-%D7%91%D7%A8%D7%9B%D7%94-%D7%A2%D7%9C-%D7%98%D7%95%D7%A8%D7%98%D7%99%D7%94 Kipa.co.il] writes that the bracha on wraps is [[Hamotzei]] (repeated [http://www.kipa.co.il/ask/show/256620-%D7%98%D7%95%D7%A8%D7%98%D7%99%D7%94 here] as well). The same can be found on [http://www.toraland.org.il/%D7%A9%D7%90%D7%9C%D7%95%D7%AA-%D7%95%D7%AA%D7%A9%D7%95%D7%91%D7%95%D7%AA/%D7%90%D7%9E%D7%95%D7%A0%D7%94-%D7%95%D7%94%D7%9C%D7%9B%D7%94/%D7%91%D7%A8%D7%9B%D7%95%D7%AA/%D7%98%D7%95%D7%A8%D7%98%D7%99%D7%95%D7%AA.aspx toraland.org.il]. The [http://oukosher.org/guide-to-blessings/ OU Guide to Brachos] writes that wraps are [[Hamotzei]] when eaten together with the filling but otherwise are [[mezonot]]. See there for the reasoning. </ref> | ||
==== | ====Cereal==== | ||
# Some say that cereals made from the 5 grains are considered [[Pas HaBah Bekisnin]] which if one ate "enough to establish a meal" one would say [[HaMotzei]] and [[Birkat HaMazon]]<Ref> Vezot HaBracha (pg 26, chapter 3). Halachos of [[Brachos]] (pg 527-8, not 7) quotes Rav Shlomo Zalman saying that breakfast cereals from the 5 grains is tzurat hapat | # Some say that cereals made from the 5 grains are considered [[Pas HaBah Bekisnin]] which if one ate "enough to establish a meal" one would say [[HaMotzei]] and [[Birkat HaMazon]]<Ref> Vezot HaBracha (pg 26, chapter 3). Halachos of [[Brachos]] (pg 527-8, not 7) quotes Rav Shlomo Zalman saying that breakfast cereals from the 5 grains is tzurat hapat | ||
[http://www.thehalacha.com/attach/Volume4/Issue2.pdf Halachically Speaking] quotes Vezot HaBracha (192 or 219) quoting Rav Shlomo Zalman and Rav Elyashiv that cheerios is tzurat hapat and Rav Chaim Pinchas Sheinburg disagrees. </ref>, others, however, hold that cereal is not made with the look of bread and remains [[mezonot]] even if one ate "enough to establish a meal".<Ref>[ | [http://www.thehalacha.com/attach/Volume4/Issue2.pdf Halachically Speaking] quotes Vezot HaBracha (192 or 219) quoting Rav Shlomo Zalman and Rav Elyashiv that cheerios is tzurat hapat and Rav Chaim Pinchas Sheinburg disagrees. </ref>, others, however, hold that cereal is not made with the look of bread and remains [[mezonot]] even if one ate "enough to establish a meal".<Ref>[https://oukosher.org/faqs/what-about-breakfast-cereals-must-they-be-pat-yisrael/ An article from the OU] quotes Rav Schachter and Rav Belsky as saying the Cheerios does not have tzurat hapat because of its small size and the way it is dried (original article can't be found online and what is linked is a shortened version). [http://www.yutorah.org/sidebar/lecture.cfm/894641/rabbi-hershel-schachter/berachos-70-37b-what-s-chayav-in-challah-donuts-cakes-bagels-cookies-tam-tams-and-more/ Rav Schachter (YUTorah Brachot Shiur 70 min 45)] explained his opinion. | ||
[http://www.cckollel.org/parsha_encounters/5770/Vayikra_70.pdf Rav Shlomo Miller], [http://www.crcweb.org/kosher_articles/pas_yisroel_during_aseres.php Rav Gedalia Shwartz], and [http://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/788653/Rabbi_Mordechai_I_Willig/Yoreh_De'ah_Shiur_06_Bishul_Akum Rabbi Mordechai Willig in a shiur on yutorah.org (min 59)] agree that Cheerios do not have tzurat hapat.</ref> | |||
====Egg [[Matzah]]==== | ====Egg [[Matzah]]==== | ||
| Line 111: | Line 116: | ||
====Pancakes==== | ====Pancakes==== | ||
# If the pancakes were made with very little oil (just enough to prevent it from getting burned) then it is considered [[Pas Haba Bikisnin]]. If the pancakes were made with a significant amount of oil, there's a doubt whether it's considered [[Pas Haba Bekisnin]] or not and so if one intends to eat a the amount of a normal meal (see [[Making a meal on Mezonot]]) one should eat it in a meal. If the pancakes were deep fried then the bracha is [[Mezonot]] even if the amount of a normal meal is consumed. <ref> Veten Bracha (Halachos of Brochos by Rabbi Bodner pg 493-4, chapter 27) </ref> | # If the pancakes were made with very little oil (just enough to prevent it from getting burned) then it is considered [[Pas Haba Bikisnin]]. If the pancakes were made with a significant amount of oil, there's a doubt whether it's considered [[Pas Haba Bekisnin]] or not and so if one intends to eat a the amount of a normal meal (see [[Making a meal on Mezonot]]) one should eat it in a meal. If the pancakes were deep fried then the bracha is [[Mezonot]] even if the amount of a normal meal is consumed. <ref> Veten Bracha (Halachos of Brochos by Rabbi Bodner pg 493-4, chapter 27) </ref> | ||
# Some say that pancakes are always mezonot even if one has a meal of them since they are made with a liquid batter that spreads out when poured.<ref>Halacha Brurah 168:28</ref> | |||
====Toast==== | ====Toast==== | ||
# Toasted bread is hamotzi. <ref> | # Toasted bread is hamotzi. <ref>Or Letzion 2:46:10 writes that toast is considered like regular bread and is hamotzei since it started as regular bread. Vezot Habracha ch. 3 p. 20 agrees.</ref> | ||
====French Toast==== | ====French Toast==== | ||
#French Toast has the status of bread and requires [[HaMotzei]]. <Ref> Vezot HaBracha (Chapter 3, pg 20,21,23) </ref> | #French Toast has the status of bread and requires [[HaMotzei]]. <Ref> The Shulchan Aruch 168:10 writes that bread that was cooked or fried is still hamotzei if the pieces were larger than a kezayit. Therefore, Vezot HaBracha (Chapter 3, pg 20,21,23) and [http://www.yutorah.org/sidebar/lecture.cfm/894641/rabbi-hershel-schachter/berachos-70-37b-what-s-chayav-in-challah-donuts-cakes-bagels-cookies-tam-tams-and-more/ Rav Schachter (Brachot Shiur 70 min 85)] ruled that french toast is certainly hamotzei. </ref> | ||
====Melba Toast==== | ====Melba Toast==== | ||
# Melba toast is a type of cracker made from toasted bread. Many say that the correct Bracha is [[Mezonot]], while some say that the Bracha is [[HaMotzei]]. <ref> | # Melba toast is a type of cracker made from toasted bread. Many say that the correct Bracha is [[Mezonot]], while some say that the Bracha is [[HaMotzei]]. <ref> | ||
| Line 124: | Line 133: | ||
===If the food is meant to fill=== | ===If the food is meant to fill=== | ||
# [[Mezonot]] that fall into the category of filled dough or crumbling hard dough, if that food is meant to be eaten to fill oneself, one should make a [[HaMotzei]] regardless of how much one ate. However, foods that fall into the category of sweet dough, even if it’s meant to be eaten to satisfy hunger, one should make a [[Mezonot]]. <Ref> S”A 168:17 rules that bread filled with meat or fish has the Bracha of [[HaMotzei]]. Magen Avraham 168:44 explains that this Bracha is made even if one doesn’t have a keviyut sueda because regarding sweets that fill the bread such as fruit there’s room to say that such fillers make the bread into a temporary snack, however, a substantial filler such as meat, fish, or cheese don’t make the bread change from [[HaMotzei]] to [[Mezonot]]. This is also the opinion of the Mishna Brurah 168:94 and Yalkut Yosef ([[Brachot]] pg 125, Kitzur S”A 168:3). However, the Taz 168:20 argues that for filled bread the Bracha is [[Mezonot]] like in | # [[Mezonot]] that fall into the category of filled dough or crumbling hard dough, if that food is meant to be eaten to fill oneself, one should make a [[HaMotzei]] regardless of how much one ate. However, foods that fall into the category of sweet dough, even if it’s meant to be eaten to satisfy hunger, one should make a [[Mezonot]]. <Ref> S”A 168:17 rules that bread filled with meat or fish has the Bracha of [[HaMotzei]]. Magen Avraham 168:44 explains that this Bracha is made even if one doesn’t have a keviyut sueda because regarding sweets that fill the bread such as fruit there’s room to say that such fillers make the bread into a temporary snack, however, a substantial filler such as meat, fish, or cheese don’t make the bread change from [[HaMotzei]] to [[Mezonot]]. This is also the opinion of the Mishna Brurah 168:94 and Yalkut Yosef ([[Brachot]] pg 125, Kitzur S”A 168:3). However, the Taz 168:20 argues that for filled bread the Bracha is [[Mezonot]] like in Shulchan Aruch 168:7 unless there’s a keviyut sueda. [Interestingly, the Ben Ish Chai (Pinchas 20), Kaf HaChaim 168:137, and Halacha Brurah 168:49 are concerned for the opinion of the Taz and hold that one should make sure to have more than a keviyut sueda, however if one doesn’t have enough and one doesn’t have bread, one should make a [[mezonot]].] The VeZot HaBracha (pg 17 note 1) rules like Mishna Brurah that for bread that’s filled and is meant to fill one up the bracha is [[HaMotzei]]. </ref> | ||
# Soft pretzels according to some are hamotzei.<ref>Pri Megadim (E"A 168:39) writes that pretzels are hamotzei. Historically, pretzels were soft pretzels (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pretzel#History). Kaf Hachaim 168:59 quotes the Pri Megadim.</ref> Some hold that it is mezonot.<ref>Rabbi Forst (Laws of Brachos p. 238) writes that soft pretzels made with water might be hamotzei. The reason he is unsure is because they are made as a snack and some poskim hold that anything which is generally eaten as a snack is mezonot. This point is discussed at length in Kaf Hachaim 168:120 who concludes that it doesn't depend on whether it is usually eaten as a snack if it doesn't fit into the definitions of the rishonim.</ref> | |||
====Mezonot Rolls==== | ====Mezonot Rolls==== | ||
# Since '[[Mezonot]]' rolls are primarily eaten as part of a meal, many say that the bracha is [[HaMotzei]] (even if one eats a little) <ref> Vezot HaBracha (pg 19, chapter 19 and pg 386) in name of Rav Elyashiv, Rav Nissim Karelitz, and Or Letzion (Vol 2, 12:4). Many American rabbis ruled that the bracha is [[HaMotzei]] including Rabbi Avraham Bik, Rabbi Reuven Feinstein, Rabbi Moshe Heinemann, Rav Moshe Shtern, Rabbi Yisrael Belsky, Rabbi Avrham Bloomenkrantz, and Veten Bracha (Halachos of Brochos by Rabbi Bodner pg 498-9, chapter 27) in name of Rabbi Shlomo Zalman regarding America. </ref> and some say the bracha is [[Mezonot]] <ref> Vezot HaBracha (pg 18, chapter 3) in name of Rav Shlomo Zalman and the rabbis on the Badatz Edah Charedit </ref>. Therefore, one should eat it as part of a meal and make [[HaMotzei]]. <Ref> http://www.oukosher.org/index.php/common/article/the_mezonos_roll_is_it_a_piece_of_cake_by_rabbi_yaakov_luban/ is the OU's position based on a Teshuva of Rabbi Yisrael Belsky which is that if a [[Mezonot]] roll is eaten as part of the meal the bracha is [[HaMotzei]], see [[Making a meal on Mezonot]]. This is also the opinion of the Star-K http://www.star-k.org/kashrus/kk-issues-pashabah.htm. </ref> However, if that’s impossible, one has what to rely on to make a [[HaMotzei]], and one has what to rely on to make a [[Mezonot]]. <Ref> Vezot HaBracha (Birur 56, pg 352) </ref> | # Since '[[Mezonot]]' rolls are primarily eaten as part of a meal, many say that the bracha is [[HaMotzei]] (even if one eats a little) <ref> Vezot HaBracha (pg 19, chapter 19 and pg 386) in name of Rav Elyashiv, Rav Nissim Karelitz, and Or Letzion (Vol 2, 12:4). Many American rabbis ruled that the bracha is [[HaMotzei]] including Rabbi Avraham Bik, Rabbi Reuven Feinstein, Rabbi Moshe Heinemann, Rav Moshe Shtern, Rabbi Yisrael Belsky, Rabbi Avrham Bloomenkrantz, and Veten Bracha (Halachos of Brochos by Rabbi Bodner pg 498-9, chapter 27) in name of Rabbi Shlomo Zalman regarding America. </ref> and some say the bracha is [[Mezonot]] <ref> Vezot HaBracha (pg 18, chapter 3) in name of Rav Shlomo Zalman and the rabbis on the Badatz Edah Charedit </ref>. Therefore, one should eat it as part of a meal and make [[HaMotzei]]. <Ref> http://www.oukosher.org/index.php/common/article/the_mezonos_roll_is_it_a_piece_of_cake_by_rabbi_yaakov_luban/ is the OU's position based on a Teshuva of Rabbi Yisrael Belsky which is that if a [[Mezonot]] roll is eaten as part of the meal the bracha is [[HaMotzei]], see [[Making a meal on Mezonot]]. This is also the opinion of the Star-K http://www.star-k.org/kashrus/kk-issues-pashabah.htm. </ref> However, if that’s impossible, one has what to rely on to make a [[HaMotzei]], and one has what to rely on to make a [[Mezonot]]. <Ref> Vezot HaBracha (Birur 56, pg 352) </ref> | ||
# In a technical sense it isn't considered absolving oneself of a mitzvah to make bread into Pat Haba Bkisnin in order not to wash.<ref>Kaneh Bosem 3:10 explains that Brachot are a mitzvah relevant to the person and therefore there is no issue with making bread into something that is mezonot. He distinguishes it from [[Challah]] which is forbidden to make in some proportions in order to absolve oneself of the mitzvah to take Challah. That is a mitzvah that emanates from the dough itself. He also cites Tosfot Brachot 37b s.v. amar in which the practice of Rabbenu Dovid to make mezonot bread in order to rush to shiur is recorded.</ref> | |||
====Pizza==== | ====Pizza==== | ||
# Regular pizza (no with fruit juice), according to Sephardim has the Bracha of [[HaMotzei]]. <Ref> | # Regular pizza (no with fruit juice), according to Sephardim has the Bracha of [[HaMotzei]]. <Ref> | ||
| Line 143: | Line 155: | ||
====Honey Challah==== | ====Honey Challah==== | ||
# According to Ashkenazim, sweet [[challah]] is [[Hamotzei]] if there is a majority of water in comparison to the fruit juice, oil, sugar, etc. <ref>Vezot HaBracha (chap 3, pg 18) based on Mishna Brurah's 168:33 explanation of the Rama 168:7. </ref>However, Sephardim hold that sweet [[challah]] is [[Mezonot]] if one can taste the sweetness of the fruit juice, oil, sugar, etc. in the [[challah]]. <ref>Kaf HaChaim 168:58, Or Letzion (vol 2, 12:4), Chazon Ovadyah ([[Brachot]] pg 55) based on Shulchan Aruch 168:7 rule that sweet [[challah]] is [[mezonot]] if one can taste the sweetness in the [[challah]]. Birkat Hashem (Rav Moshe HaLevi vol 2, 2:40) agrees that sweet [[challah]] is [[Mezonot]] but argues that the amount of a regular meal isn't 6 or 8 Kezaytim but rather a little more than 2 Kezaytim and so if one eats more than 2 Kezaytim of sweet [[challah]] one should make [[HaMotzei]]. However, if it's made with a minority of water or no water then he agrees that the amount of a regular meal is 170cc (6 Kezaytim). </ref> Some Sephardic authorities say that even though the minhag is to make [[Mezonot]], a pious person would make sure that if he is going to have sweet [[challah]], it should be a part of a meal with real bread. <ref>Or Letzion (vol 2, 12:4 in the footnote) writes that even though the minhag is to make [[mezonot]] on sweet [[challah]] a pious person would make sure to have it in a meal in order to satisfy all opinions because the sweet [[challah]] is usually eaten as a meal. However, Vezot HaBracha (chap 3, pg 18) quotes Rav Mordechai Eliyahu who says that one does not need to be strict. [Chazon Ovadyah ([[Brachot]] pg 55) also makes | # According to Ashkenazim, sweet [[challah]] is [[Hamotzei]] if there is a majority of water in comparison to the fruit juice, oil, sugar, etc. <ref>Vezot HaBracha (chap 3, pg 18) based on Mishna Brurah's 168:33 explanation of the Rama 168:7. </ref>However, Sephardim hold that sweet [[challah]] is [[Mezonot]] if one can taste the sweetness of the fruit juice, oil, sugar, etc. in the [[challah]]. <ref>Kaf HaChaim 168:58, Or Letzion (vol 2, 12:4), Chazon Ovadyah ([[Brachot]] pg 55) based on Shulchan Aruch 168:7 rule that sweet [[challah]] is [[mezonot]] if one can taste the sweetness in the [[challah]]. Birkat Hashem (Rav Moshe HaLevi vol 2, 2:40) agrees that sweet [[challah]] is [[Mezonot]] but argues that the amount of a regular meal isn't 6 or 8 Kezaytim but rather a little more than 2 Kezaytim and so if one eats more than 2 Kezaytim of sweet [[challah]] one should make [[HaMotzei]]. However, if it's made with a minority of water or no water then he agrees that the amount of a regular meal is 170cc (6 Kezaytim). </ref> Some Sephardic authorities say that even though the minhag is to make [[Mezonot]], a pious person would make sure that if he is going to have sweet [[challah]], it should be a part of a meal with real bread. <ref>Or Letzion (vol 2, 12:4 in the footnote) writes that even though the minhag is to make [[mezonot]] on sweet [[challah]] a pious person would make sure to have it in a meal in order to satisfy all opinions because the sweet [[challah]] is usually eaten as a meal. However, Vezot HaBracha (chap 3, pg 18) quotes Rav Mordechai Eliyahu who says that one does not need to be strict. [Chazon Ovadyah ([[Brachot]] pg 55) also makes no mention of being strict in this matter. However, Kaf HaChaim 168:58 quotes the Emek Bracha and Shlah who say that a pious person would be strict in all cases that there is a recognizable taste of the sweetness in the dough.] </ref> | ||
# If a Sephardi is eating at an Ashkenazic family who is having sweet [[challah]] for [[Hamotzei]] on [[Shabbat]], ideally, one should eat 8 [[Measurements#Kezayit|Kezayitim]] of the [[challah]] in order to be able to make [[HaMotzei]] and [[Birkat HaMazon]]. Some authorities say that if that's difficult one should have 6 [[Measurements#Kezayit|Kezayitim]], and if that's difficult there is what to rely on to make a [[HaMotzei]] and [[Birkat HaMazon]] even if one only eats 1 [[Measurements#Kezayit|Kezayit]] of the sweet [[Challah]]. <ref> Vezot HaBracha (Chapter 4, pg 39) in name of Rav Mordechai Eliyahu and Rav Elyashiv paskening for Sephardim ruled that, ideally, one should eat 8 [[Measurements#Kezayit|Kezayitim]] of the [[challah]] in order to be able to make [[HaMotzei]] and [[Birkat HaMazon]], however, if that’s difficult one should have 6 Kezaytim and if that’s difficult there’s what to rely on to make a [[HaMotzei]] and [[Birkat HaMazon]] even if one only eats one [[Measurements#Kezayit|Kezayit]] of the sweet [[Challah]]. Vezot HaBracha also quotes this from Rav Shlomo Levi in Kuntres Birkat HaPat pg 43. The reasons given for this ruling is | # If a Sephardi is eating at an Ashkenazic family who is having sweet [[challah]] for [[Hamotzei]] on [[Shabbat]], ideally, one should eat 8 [[Measurements#Kezayit|Kezayitim]] of the [[challah]] in order to be able to make [[HaMotzei]] and [[Birkat HaMazon]]. Some authorities say that if that's difficult one should have 6 [[Measurements#Kezayit|Kezayitim]], and if that's difficult there is what to rely on to make a [[HaMotzei]] and [[Birkat HaMazon]] even if one only eats 1 [[Measurements#Kezayit|Kezayit]] of the sweet [[Challah]]. <ref> Vezot HaBracha (Chapter 4, pg 39) in name of Rav Mordechai Eliyahu and Rav Elyashiv paskening for Sephardim ruled that, ideally, one should eat 8 [[Measurements#Kezayit|Kezayitim]] of the [[challah]] in order to be able to make [[HaMotzei]] and [[Birkat HaMazon]], however, if that’s difficult one should have 6 Kezaytim and if that’s difficult there’s what to rely on to make a [[HaMotzei]] and [[Birkat HaMazon]] even if one only eats one [[Measurements#Kezayit|Kezayit]] of the sweet [[Challah]]. Vezot HaBracha also quotes this from Rav Shlomo Levi in Kuntres Birkat HaPat pg 43. The reasons given for this ruling is: (1) this definition of [[Pas HaBah Bekisnin]] is only one of three (S”A 168:7) and perhaps according to the other opinions it’s real bread. (2) Also, according to the Rama’s 168:7 explanation of this definition the Bracha would be [[HaMotzei]]. (3) Lastly, according to the Bet Yosef since this sweet [[challah]] is used regularly for a meal the Bracha would be [[HaMotzei]]. Minchat Shmuel 1:11 seems to accept this argument. (4) Additionally, Birkat Hashem (Rav Moshe HaLevi vol 2, 2:40) holds that one should make [[HaMotzei]] on sweet [[challah]] if one eats a little more than 2 Kezaytim unless it is made with a majority of sweeteners. (5) The Magen Avraham 168:13 holds that all other foods in the food combine with the pas haba bekisnin to establish it as a meal. The Chida (Birkei Yosef 168:6) argues and Sephardim (Kaf Hachaim 168:47) follow the Chida. (6) See Kaf Hachaim 168:45 regarding Shabbat making all Pat Haba Bkisnin hamotzei. The Mahari Chagiz held it did and the Ginat Veradim and Chida who held that it did not. (7) The Magen Avraham 168:44 holds that eggs don't make it into pas haba bkisnin, however, the Kaf Hachaim 168:139 quotes the Dagul Mirvavah and Zera Emet who argue with the Magen Avraham. Halacha Brurah 168:23 rules against the Magen Avraham. </ref>However, some authorities argue that a Sephardi guest at an Ashkenazi family who is having sweet [[challah]] should make sure to take with him real bread that isn’t sweet in order to make [[HaMotzei]] and fulfill the mitzvah of Seudat [[Shabbat]]. <ref>However, Chazon Ovadyah ([[Brachot]] pg 55-60) rejects the arguments to be lenient as he holds that all of them are against Shulchan Aruch. Therefore, he rules that a Sephardic guest at an Ashkenazic home that is making [[HaMotzei]] on sweet [[challah]] should make sure to take with him regular [[challah]] in order to make [[Hamotzei]] and fulfill the mitzvah of Seudat [[Shabbat]]. Halacha Brurah (Otzrot Yosef 8:10) agrees. Sh”t Avnei Yishfeh 3:16 (pg 34) quotes Chacham Ben Tzion Abba Shaul who said that a Sephardi who is a guest at an Ashkenazic home should make [[Mezonot]]. </ref> | ||
==Questions and Answers== | ==Questions and Answers== | ||
