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Pat Haba Bikisnin: Difference between revisions
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====Honey Challah==== | ====Honey Challah==== | ||
# According to Ashkenazim, sweet [[challah]] is [[Hamotzei]] if there is a majority of water in comparison to the fruit juice, oil, sugar, etc. <ref>Vezot HaBracha (chap 3, pg 18) based on Mishna Brurah's 168:33 explanation of the Rama 168:7. </ref>However, Sephardim hold that sweet [[challah]] is [[Mezonot]] if one can taste the sweetness of the fruit juice, oil, sugar, etc. in the [[challah]]. <ref>Kaf HaChaim 168:58, Or Letzion (vol 2, 12:4), Chazon Ovadyah ([[Brachot]] pg 55) based on Shulchan Aruch 168:7 rule that sweet [[challah]] is [[mezonot]] if one can taste the sweetness in the [[challah]]. Birkat Hashem (Rav Moshe HaLevi vol 2, 2:40) agrees that sweet [[challah]] is [[Mezonot]] but argues that the amount of a regular meal isn't 6 or 8 Kezaytim but rather a little more than 2 Kezaytim and so if one eats more than 2 Kezaytim of sweet [[challah]] one should make [[HaMotzei]]. However, if it's made with a minority of water or no water then he agrees that the amount of a regular meal is 170cc (6 Kezaytim). </ref> Some Sephardic authorities say that even though the minhag is to make [[Mezonot]], a pious person would make sure that if he is going to have sweet [[challah]], it should be a part of a meal with real bread. <ref>Or Letzion (vol 2, 12:4 in the footnote) writes that even though the minhag is to make [[mezonot]] on sweet [[challah]] a pious person would make sure to have it in a meal in order to satisfy all opinions because the sweet [[challah]] is usually eaten as a meal. However, Vezot HaBracha (chap 3, pg 18) quotes Rav Mordechai Eliyahu who says that one does not need to be strict. [Chazon Ovadyah ([[Brachot]] pg 55) also makes no mention of being strict in this matter. However, Kaf HaChaim 168:58 quotes the Emek Bracha and Shlah who say that a pious person would be strict in all cases that there is a recognizable taste of the sweetness in the dough.] </ref> | # According to Ashkenazim, sweet [[challah]] is [[Hamotzei]] if there is a majority of water in comparison to the fruit juice, oil, sugar, etc. <ref>Vezot HaBracha (chap 3, pg 18) based on Mishna Brurah's 168:33 explanation of the Rama 168:7. </ref>However, Sephardim hold that sweet [[challah]] is [[Mezonot]] if one can taste the sweetness of the fruit juice, oil, sugar, etc. in the [[challah]]. <ref>Kaf HaChaim 168:58, Or Letzion (vol 2, 12:4), Chazon Ovadyah ([[Brachot]] pg 55) based on Shulchan Aruch 168:7 rule that sweet [[challah]] is [[mezonot]] if one can taste the sweetness in the [[challah]]. Birkat Hashem (Rav Moshe HaLevi vol 2, 2:40) agrees that sweet [[challah]] is [[Mezonot]] but argues that the amount of a regular meal isn't 6 or 8 Kezaytim but rather a little more than 2 Kezaytim and so if one eats more than 2 Kezaytim of sweet [[challah]] one should make [[HaMotzei]]. However, if it's made with a minority of water or no water then he agrees that the amount of a regular meal is 170cc (6 Kezaytim). </ref> Some Sephardic authorities say that even though the minhag is to make [[Mezonot]], a pious person would make sure that if he is going to have sweet [[challah]], it should be a part of a meal with real bread. <ref>Or Letzion (vol 2, 12:4 in the footnote) writes that even though the minhag is to make [[mezonot]] on sweet [[challah]] a pious person would make sure to have it in a meal in order to satisfy all opinions because the sweet [[challah]] is usually eaten as a meal. However, Vezot HaBracha (chap 3, pg 18) quotes Rav Mordechai Eliyahu who says that one does not need to be strict. [Chazon Ovadyah ([[Brachot]] pg 55) also makes no mention of being strict in this matter. However, Kaf HaChaim 168:58 quotes the Emek Bracha and Shlah who say that a pious person would be strict in all cases that there is a recognizable taste of the sweetness in the dough.] </ref> | ||
# If a Sephardi is eating at an Ashkenazic family who is having sweet [[challah]] for [[Hamotzei]] on [[Shabbat]], ideally, one should eat 8 [[Measurements#Kezayit|Kezayitim]] of the [[challah]] in order to be able to make [[HaMotzei]] and [[Birkat HaMazon]]. Some authorities say that if that's difficult one should have 6 [[Measurements#Kezayit|Kezayitim]], and if that's difficult there is what to rely on to make a [[HaMotzei]] and [[Birkat HaMazon]] even if one only eats 1 [[Measurements#Kezayit|Kezayit]] of the sweet [[Challah]]. <ref> Vezot HaBracha (Chapter 4, pg 39) in name of Rav Mordechai Eliyahu and Rav Elyashiv paskening for Sephardim ruled that, ideally, one should eat 8 [[Measurements#Kezayit|Kezayitim]] of the [[challah]] in order to be able to make [[HaMotzei]] and [[Birkat HaMazon]], however, if that’s difficult one should have 6 Kezaytim and if that’s difficult there’s what to rely on to make a [[HaMotzei]] and [[Birkat HaMazon]] even if one only eats one [[Measurements#Kezayit|Kezayit]] of the sweet [[Challah]]. Vezot HaBracha also quotes this from Rav Shlomo Levi in Kuntres Birkat HaPat pg 43. The reasons given for this ruling is: (1) this definition of [[Pas HaBah Bekisnin]] is only one of three (S”A 168:7) and perhaps according to the other opinions it’s real bread. (2) Also, according to the Rama’s 168:7 explanation of this definition the Bracha would be [[HaMotzei]]. (3) Lastly, according to the Bet Yosef since this sweet [[challah]] is used regularly for a meal the Bracha would be [[HaMotzei]]. (4) Additionally, Birkat Hashem (Rav Moshe HaLevi vol 2, 2:40) holds that one should make [[HaMotzei]] on sweet [[challah]] if one eats a little more than 2 Kezaytim unless it is made with a majority of sweeteners. (5) The Magen Avraham 168:13 holds that all other foods in the food combine with the pas haba bekisnin to establish it as a meal. The Chida (Birkei Yosef 168:6) argues and Sephardim (Kaf Hachaim 168:47) follow the Chida. (6) See Kaf Hachaim 168:45 regarding Shabbat making all Pat Haba Bkisnin hamotzei. The Mahari Chagiz held it did and the Ginat Veradim and Chida who held that it did not. (7) The Magen Avraham 168:44 holds that eggs don't make it into pas haba bkisnin, however, the Kaf Hachaim 168:139 quotes the Dagul Mirvavah and Zera Emet who argue with the Magen Avraham. Halacha Brurah 168:23 rules against the Magen Avraham. </ref>However, some authorities argue that a Sephardi guest at an Ashkenazi family who is having sweet [[challah]] should make sure to take with him real bread that isn’t sweet in order to make [[HaMotzei]] and fulfill the mitzvah of Seudat [[Shabbat]]. <ref>However, Chazon Ovadyah ([[Brachot]] pg 55-60) rejects the arguments to be lenient as he holds that all of them are against Shulchan Aruch. Therefore, he rules that a Sephardic guest at an Ashkenazic home that is making [[HaMotzei]] on sweet [[challah]] should make sure to take with him regular [[challah]] in order to make [[Hamotzei]] and fulfill the mitzvah of Seudat [[Shabbat]]. Sh”t Avnei Yishfeh 3:16 (pg 34) quotes Chacham Ben Tzion Abba Shaul who said that a Sephardi who is a guest at an Ashkenazic home should make [[Mezonot]]. </ref> | # If a Sephardi is eating at an Ashkenazic family who is having sweet [[challah]] for [[Hamotzei]] on [[Shabbat]], ideally, one should eat 8 [[Measurements#Kezayit|Kezayitim]] of the [[challah]] in order to be able to make [[HaMotzei]] and [[Birkat HaMazon]]. Some authorities say that if that's difficult one should have 6 [[Measurements#Kezayit|Kezayitim]], and if that's difficult there is what to rely on to make a [[HaMotzei]] and [[Birkat HaMazon]] even if one only eats 1 [[Measurements#Kezayit|Kezayit]] of the sweet [[Challah]]. <ref> Vezot HaBracha (Chapter 4, pg 39) in name of Rav Mordechai Eliyahu and Rav Elyashiv paskening for Sephardim ruled that, ideally, one should eat 8 [[Measurements#Kezayit|Kezayitim]] of the [[challah]] in order to be able to make [[HaMotzei]] and [[Birkat HaMazon]], however, if that’s difficult one should have 6 Kezaytim and if that’s difficult there’s what to rely on to make a [[HaMotzei]] and [[Birkat HaMazon]] even if one only eats one [[Measurements#Kezayit|Kezayit]] of the sweet [[Challah]]. Vezot HaBracha also quotes this from Rav Shlomo Levi in Kuntres Birkat HaPat pg 43. The reasons given for this ruling is: (1) this definition of [[Pas HaBah Bekisnin]] is only one of three (S”A 168:7) and perhaps according to the other opinions it’s real bread. (2) Also, according to the Rama’s 168:7 explanation of this definition the Bracha would be [[HaMotzei]]. (3) Lastly, according to the Bet Yosef since this sweet [[challah]] is used regularly for a meal the Bracha would be [[HaMotzei]]. Minchat Shmuel 1:11 seems to accept this argument. (4) Additionally, Birkat Hashem (Rav Moshe HaLevi vol 2, 2:40) holds that one should make [[HaMotzei]] on sweet [[challah]] if one eats a little more than 2 Kezaytim unless it is made with a majority of sweeteners. (5) The Magen Avraham 168:13 holds that all other foods in the food combine with the pas haba bekisnin to establish it as a meal. The Chida (Birkei Yosef 168:6) argues and Sephardim (Kaf Hachaim 168:47) follow the Chida. (6) See Kaf Hachaim 168:45 regarding Shabbat making all Pat Haba Bkisnin hamotzei. The Mahari Chagiz held it did and the Ginat Veradim and Chida who held that it did not. (7) The Magen Avraham 168:44 holds that eggs don't make it into pas haba bkisnin, however, the Kaf Hachaim 168:139 quotes the Dagul Mirvavah and Zera Emet who argue with the Magen Avraham. Halacha Brurah 168:23 rules against the Magen Avraham. </ref>However, some authorities argue that a Sephardi guest at an Ashkenazi family who is having sweet [[challah]] should make sure to take with him real bread that isn’t sweet in order to make [[HaMotzei]] and fulfill the mitzvah of Seudat [[Shabbat]]. <ref>However, Chazon Ovadyah ([[Brachot]] pg 55-60) rejects the arguments to be lenient as he holds that all of them are against Shulchan Aruch. Therefore, he rules that a Sephardic guest at an Ashkenazic home that is making [[HaMotzei]] on sweet [[challah]] should make sure to take with him regular [[challah]] in order to make [[Hamotzei]] and fulfill the mitzvah of Seudat [[Shabbat]]. Halacha Brurah (Otzrot Yosef 8:10) agrees. Sh”t Avnei Yishfeh 3:16 (pg 34) quotes Chacham Ben Tzion Abba Shaul who said that a Sephardi who is a guest at an Ashkenazic home should make [[Mezonot]]. </ref> | ||
==Questions and Answers== | ==Questions and Answers== | ||
