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Pat Haba Bikisnin: Difference between revisions
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==What's considered a meal== | ==What's considered a meal== | ||
===When Pas Haba BeKisnin is eaten alone | ===When Pas Haba BeKisnin is eaten alone=== | ||
#According to Ashkenazim, if one eats less than 8 [[Measurements#Kezayit|Kezaytim]] one should certainly make a [[Mezonot]]. If one eats the amount of a regular meal one should make [[HaMotzei]]. [For a regular person if one eats 280 grams of regular cake one certainly is having the amount of a regular meal and could make [[HaMotzei]] and [[Birkat HaMazon]].] Preferably, one shouldn't have in between 8 [[Measurements#Kezayit|Kezayitim]] and the amount of a regular meal unless one first washes and makes [[HaMotzei]] on real bread. After the fact (if one ate between 8 [[Measurements#Kezayit|Kezayitim]] and a definite meal), if one is not full make [[Al HaMichya]] and if one is full make [[Birkat HaMazon]], yet, in such a case it’s preferable to hear [[Birkat HaMazon]] (from someone who’s obligated to make [[Birkat HaMazon]]) or to eat bread (making [[HaMotzei]] and [[Birkat HaMazon]]). [For background see footnote.]<ref>See next note </ref> | #According to Ashkenazim, if one eats less than 8 [[Measurements#Kezayit|Kezaytim]] one should certainly make a [[Mezonot]]. If one eats the amount of a regular meal one should make [[HaMotzei]]. [For a regular person if one eats 280 grams of regular cake one certainly is having the amount of a regular meal and could make [[HaMotzei]] and [[Birkat HaMazon]].] Preferably, one shouldn't have in between 8 [[Measurements#Kezayit|Kezayitim]] and the amount of a regular meal unless one first washes and makes [[HaMotzei]] on real bread. After the fact (if one ate between 8 [[Measurements#Kezayit|Kezayitim]] and a definite meal), if one is not full make [[Al HaMichya]] and if one is full make [[Birkat HaMazon]], yet, in such a case it’s preferable to hear [[Birkat HaMazon]] (from someone who’s obligated to make [[Birkat HaMazon]]) or to eat bread (making [[HaMotzei]] and [[Birkat HaMazon]]). [For background see footnote.]<ref>See next note </ref> | ||
#According to Sephardim, if one ate less than 6 [[Measurements#Kezayit|Kezaytim]] one should make a [[Mezonot]]. If one eats more than 8 [[Measurements#Kezayit|Kezayitim]] one should make [[HaMotzei]]. Preferably one shouldn't eat between 6 and 8 [[Measurements#Kezayit|Kezaytim]] and if one did then one should just make [[Al HaMichya]]. [For background see footnote.]<ref> | #According to Sephardim, if one ate less than 6 [[Measurements#Kezayit|Kezaytim]] one should make a [[Mezonot]]. If one eats more than 8 [[Measurements#Kezayit|Kezayitim]] one should make [[HaMotzei]]. Preferably one shouldn't eat between 6 and 8 [[Measurements#Kezayit|Kezaytim]] and if one did then one should just make [[Al HaMichya]]. [For background see footnote.]<ref> | ||
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* Sephardim: Halacha Brurah 168:16 (explained in Otzorot Yosef Siman 9) writes that Sephardim hold like the Chida that if one ate 8 [[Measurements#Kezayit|Kezayitim]] one should make [[HaMotzei]] and [[Birkat HaMazon]], and if one ate less than that one should make [[Mezonot]] and [[Al HaMichya]] but it's preferable that one shouldn't eat in between 6 and 8 [[Measurements#Kezayit|Kezayitim]]. This is also the ruling in Ben Ish Chai Pinchas 19, Kaf Hachayim 168:45, Sh"t Shemesh U'magen 2: hashmatot page 318, and Chazon Ovadia [[Berachot]] page 56. </ref> | * Sephardim: Halacha Brurah 168:16 (explained in Otzorot Yosef Siman 9) writes that Sephardim hold like the Chida that if one ate 8 [[Measurements#Kezayit|Kezayitim]] one should make [[HaMotzei]] and [[Birkat HaMazon]], and if one ate less than that one should make [[Mezonot]] and [[Al HaMichya]] but it's preferable that one shouldn't eat in between 6 and 8 [[Measurements#Kezayit|Kezayitim]]. This is also the ruling in Ben Ish Chai Pinchas 19, Kaf Hachayim 168:45, Sh"t Shemesh U'magen 2: hashmatot page 318, and Chazon Ovadia [[Berachot]] page 56. </ref> | ||
===When Pas Haba Bekisnin is eaten with other foods | ===When Pas Haba Bekisnin is eaten with other foods=== | ||
# According to Sephardim even if Pas Haba BeKisnin is eaten with other foods those other foods are not taken into consideration when considering the amount of a meal. <ref>Chazon Ovadia [[Berachot]] page 55, Sh”t Shemesh Umagen 2:11:page 29, Kaf HaChaim 168:47 rules against the Magan Avraham 168:13 and says that S”A implies that one must be the amount of a meal from the Pat itself. </ref> | # According to Sephardim even if Pas Haba BeKisnin is eaten with other foods those other foods are not taken into consideration when considering the amount of a meal. <ref>Chazon Ovadia [[Berachot]] page 55, Sh”t Shemesh Umagen 2:11:page 29, Kaf HaChaim 168:47 rules against the Magan Avraham 168:13 and says that S”A implies that one must be the amount of a meal from the Pat itself. </ref> | ||
# However, according to Ashkenazim the following laws apply: | # However, according to Ashkenazim the following laws apply: | ||
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# The bread is filled with a sweet filler such as: chocolate, nuts, fruit, etc. | # The bread is filled with a sweet filler such as: chocolate, nuts, fruit, etc. | ||
# The bread is very hard | # The bread is very hard | ||
<br> | <br> | ||
# The following foods are called Pas HaBah BeKisnin and if one eats a Shuir Seuda one must make a [[HaMotzei]]: Berakas, Hotdog in pastry, cake, cookies, pretzels, and crackers. <Ref> Vezot HaBracha (pg 26, chapter 3) </ref> | |||
===First category=== | ===First category=== | ||
# According to Ashkenzim, if there’s a majority (51%) of sweeteners such as fruit juice, oil, egg, margarine, sugar, honey, or the like in comparison to the amount of water added to the flour, then the Bracha is [[mezonot]]. <Ref> Rama 168:7, Mishna Brurah 168:33 writes that such is the minhag of Ashkenazim. </ref>However, water mixed into the sweeteners such as diluted fruited juice or margarine (usually 15% water) isn’t included in the calculations of sweeteners to water. <Ref>VeZot HaBracha (pg 17) in name of [[Rabbi Shlomo Zalman Auerbach]] and Sh”t Shevet HaLevi 9:44 </ref> | # According to Ashkenzim, if there’s a majority (51%) of sweeteners such as fruit juice, oil, egg, margarine, sugar, honey, or the like in comparison to the amount of water added to the flour, then the Bracha is [[mezonot]]. <Ref> Rama 168:7, Mishna Brurah 168:33 writes that such is the minhag of Ashkenazim. </ref>However, water mixed into the sweeteners such as diluted fruited juice or margarine (usually 15% water) isn’t included in the calculations of sweeteners to water. <Ref>VeZot HaBracha (pg 17) in name of [[Rabbi Shlomo Zalman Auerbach]] and Sh”t Shevet HaLevi 9:44 </ref> | ||
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# If the dough is cooked into a food that's hard and crumbles the bracha is [[Mezonot]]. <ref> S"A 168:7. Vezot HaBracha (pg 19, chapter 3) points out that the Mishna Brurah (168:35) writes that it must be that it's usual to be eaten as a snack. </ref> | # If the dough is cooked into a food that's hard and crumbles the bracha is [[Mezonot]]. <ref> S"A 168:7. Vezot HaBracha (pg 19, chapter 3) points out that the Mishna Brurah (168:35) writes that it must be that it's usual to be eaten as a snack. </ref> | ||
=== | ===Cooked Mezonot=== | ||
# The following foods are called | # The following foods are called cooked [[Mezonot]], which don't resemble bread, and even if one eats a Shuir Seuda one makes a [[Mezonot]]: Farina, oatmeal, noodles, rice, soup nuts, farfel, couscous, blintzes, noodle kugel*, and wafers*. <Ref> Vezot HaBracha (Chapter 4, pg 26). There he mentions that majority of poskim hold that kugel is Tavshil [[Mezonot]] and similarly concerning wafers there’s some doubt in the poskim even though the primary halacha is that it’s Tavshil [[Mezonot]]. </ref> | ||
# Most poskim hold that noodle kugel is considered a cooked mezonot and would always be mezonot even if one had a meal of it. However, some say that it is considered a baked mezonot and could become hamotzei if eaten as a meal. <ref>Regular noodles are certainly mezonot because they doesn't resemble bread since it is so thin and boiled (Rama 168:13). The only question is if it is later baked whether that makes it into pat ha'ba be'kisnin, which becomes hamotzei if eaten as a meal, or it remains a tavshil mezonot, which is mezonot even eaten as a meal. Noodle kugel is such an example of noodles that are boiled and then baked. Or Letzion 2:12:6 writes that noodle kugel is mezonot and remains a non-bread mezonot since it is still a thin dough and doesn't resemble bread. Additionally, Vezot Habracha (Birur Halacha 5, p. 218) quotes Rav Shlomo Zalman, Rav Sheinberg, and other poskim who consider noodle kugel to be a tavshil mezonot. Rav Shlomo Zalman added that it should remain a tavshil mezonot since the noodles are still recognizable. Additionally, Shaarei Bracha (p. 146) explains that it is a tavshil mezonot since it is fully cooked before it is baked. However, Rav Elyashiv is of the an opinion (quoted by Vezot HaBracha) that noodle kugel is a pat habah bekisnin since it is baked. His proof is the Mieri (Pesachim 36b s.v. iysa) who says that bread which is boiled and then baked is hamotzei. </ref> | |||
# A similar discussion could be had of lasagna. However, in conclusion the bracha is mezonot.<ref>Lasanga seems to have the same status as noodle kugel. In any event, Vezot HaBracha (Birur Halacha 5, p. 219) writes that the bracha on lasagna is mezonot since it doesn't resemble bread. He writes that even if it isn't boiled beforehand, it is mezonot since it doesn't resemble the look of bread at all. </ref> | |||
====Wraps and Tortillas==== | ====Wraps and Tortillas==== | ||
[[Image:tortillas.jpg|200px|right]] | [[Image:tortillas.jpg|200px|right]] | ||
