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Milk and Meat in the Kitchen: Difference between revisions
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# Some say that we can't assume a pot cover that we're unsure if it was used within 24 hours that is considered eino ben yomo.<ref>Darkei Teshuva 93:25 citing the Yavetz</ref> | # Some say that we can't assume a pot cover that we're unsure if it was used within 24 hours that is considered eino ben yomo.<ref>Darkei Teshuva 93:25 citing the Yavetz</ref> | ||
====Hot Cover on Cold Pot==== | ====Hot Cover on Cold Pot==== | ||
# If one accidentally placed a hot cover on a cold pot, some say that the food, the pot and the cover are all still kosher.<ref>Rama 93:1</ref> Other poskim hold that the pot needs to be koshered.<ref>Shach 93:6, Pri Chadash 93:9, Aruch Hashulchan 93:18. The Isur Vheter 31:18 holds that the moisture on the hot lid is considered like a kli sheni and not iruy since it is a drop and not a stream, while the Hagahot Shaarei Dura 56:1 disagrees and considers that drop to cause absorptions to forbid the pot and lid. Darkei Moshe 93:2 cites this dispute and in Rama 93:1 he rules like the Isur Veheter. Shach 93:6 holds like the Hagahot Shaarei Dura arguing that the lid is itself a kli rishon so the drop retains its status of iruy. Pri Chadash partially agrees with the Shach but only seems to forbid the pot and not the lid. Badei Hashulchan 93:1 s.v. vim hakisuy explains that the Pri Chadash holds that a drop doesn't have the ability to absorb taste and then transfer it. This is in line with the Chavot Daat 92:20 and 105:13 unlike the Yad Yehuda 92 (cited by Badei Hashulchan 92:8 s.v. ashtey kederot). Chavot Daat thinks that a small amount of moisture can absorb taste but not impart it because liquids also absorb tastes like foods and as such a food can't impart flavor to something else without a liquid or fat ( | # If one accidentally placed a hot cover on a cold pot, some say that the food, the pot and the cover are all still kosher.<ref>Rama 93:1</ref> Other poskim hold that the pot needs to be koshered.<ref>Shach 93:6, Pri Chadash 93:9, Aruch Hashulchan 93:18. The Isur Vheter 31:18 holds that the moisture on the hot lid is considered like a kli sheni and not iruy since it is a drop and not a stream, while the Hagahot Shaarei Dura 56:1 disagrees and considers that drop to cause absorptions to forbid the pot and lid. Darkei Moshe 93:2 cites this dispute and in Rama 93:1 he rules like the Isur Veheter. Shach 93:6 holds like the Hagahot Shaarei Dura arguing that the lid is itself a kli rishon so the drop retains its status of iruy. Pri Chadash partially agrees with the Shach but only seems to forbid the pot and not the lid. Badei Hashulchan 93:1 s.v. vim hakisuy explains that the Pri Chadash holds that a drop doesn't have the ability to absorb taste and then transfer it. This is in line with the Chavot Daat 92:20 and 105:13 unlike the Yad Yehuda 92 (cited by Badei Hashulchan 92:8 s.v. ashtey kederot). Chavot Daat thinks that a small amount of moisture can absorb taste but not impart it because liquids also absorb tastes like foods and as such a food can't impart flavor to something else without a liquid or fat (Shulchan Aruch YD 105:7).</ref> Poskim are strict unless there is financial loss involved.<ref>Chachmat Adam 46:5, Badei Hashulchan 93:31, Laws of Kashrut p. 270</ref> | ||
# The above only applies when the hot lid was wet or moist, but if it was totally dry then everything is kosher.<ref>Aruch Hashulchan 93:18, Chachmat Adam 46:5</ref> Without any more information we have to assume that a hot lid that was on a cooking pot and removed is still moist.<Ref>Shach 93:6, Chachmat Adam 46:5, Badei Hashulchan 93:31</ref> | # The above only applies when the hot lid was wet or moist, but if it was totally dry then everything is kosher.<ref>Aruch Hashulchan 93:18, Chachmat Adam 46:5</ref> Without any more information we have to assume that a hot lid that was on a cooking pot and removed is still moist.<Ref>Shach 93:6, Chachmat Adam 46:5, Badei Hashulchan 93:31</ref> | ||
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# If the dairy pot or the meat spoon weren't used within 24 hours for their respective kind then they have no effect upon each other. However, the minhag is to treat the food like the one that wasn't used within 24 and the utensil that wasn't used within 24 hours as non-kosher.<ref>Rama 94:5</ref> | # If the dairy pot or the meat spoon weren't used within 24 hours for their respective kind then they have no effect upon each other. However, the minhag is to treat the food like the one that wasn't used within 24 and the utensil that wasn't used within 24 hours as non-kosher.<ref>Rama 94:5</ref> | ||
# If a dairy spoon was used to mix a parve soup or food with liquids in a meat pot, according to Ashkenazim the food and the pot are rendered non-kosher. If there is sixty times the spoon in the soup the food and pot are kosher and the dairy spoon is rendered non-kosher. If the dairy spoon wasn't used within 24 hours the food and pot are kosher and the spoon is rendered non-kosher. According to Sephardim the food, pot, and spoon are kosher.<ref>Shulchan Aruch Y.D. 95:3</ref> | # If a dairy spoon was used to mix a parve soup or food with liquids in a meat pot, according to Ashkenazim the food and the pot are rendered non-kosher. If there is sixty times the spoon in the soup the food and pot are kosher and the dairy spoon is rendered non-kosher. If the dairy spoon wasn't used within 24 hours the food and pot are kosher and the spoon is rendered non-kosher. According to Sephardim the food, pot, and spoon are kosher.<ref>Shulchan Aruch Y.D. 95:3</ref> | ||
# If a dairy spoon was used to mix rice, noodles, or vegetables in a pot on the stove where there aren't liquids between the foods, some poskim hold that for Ashkenazim the food, the spoon, and the pot are rendered non-kosher. Others hold that only the food is non-kosher, while still others hold that everything remains kosher.<ref>Badei Hashulchan Biurim on 95:3 s.v. afilu cites the Chavot Daat 94:26 who writes that for rice or noodles where the water is poured out the taste of the dairy from the spoon goes directly into the food and the taste from the meat goes directly into the food rendering it nat bar nat of meat and milk together which is non-kosher. Therefore, everything else is rendered non-kosher. The Pri Megadim M"Z 94:7 agrees regarding the food but not for the pots since the absorbed taste of the meat and the milk in the food doesn't spread to the pot without a liquid. Badei Hashulchan comments that we follow the Pri Megadim on this point since we hold that meat and milk aren't considered forbidden in it of itself but an absorbed taste (Taz 105 unlike Shach 105:17). The Yad Yehuda argues further that the food isn't rendered non-kosher since only the pieces that are in direct contact with the pot absorb the meat taste and only the rice in direct contact with the spoon absorb the milk taste and since absorbed taste doesn't transfer without a liquid everything is permitted. Badei Hashulchan leaves this discussion unresolved.</ref> Sephardim hold like that everything remains kosher.<ref>According to Shulchan Aruch 95:3 who follows the Ramban it is allows considered nat bar nat of kosher tastes since the milk taste from the spoon that goes into the food can't forbid the meat taste from the pot that came into the food without first becoming a third derivative taste which is permitted. Rama follows the Sefer Hatrumah who is strict and therefore leaves room for the above discussion.</ref> | # If a dairy spoon was used to mix rice, noodles, or vegetables in a meat pot on the stove where there aren't liquids between the foods, some poskim hold that for Ashkenazim the food, the spoon, and the pot are rendered non-kosher. Others hold that only the food is non-kosher, while still others hold that everything remains kosher.<ref>Badei Hashulchan Biurim on 95:3 s.v. afilu cites the Chavot Daat 94:26 who writes that for rice or noodles where the water is poured out the taste of the dairy from the spoon goes directly into the food and the taste from the meat goes directly into the food rendering it nat bar nat of meat and milk together which is non-kosher. Therefore, everything else is rendered non-kosher. The Pri Megadim M"Z 94:7 agrees regarding the food but not for the pots since the absorbed taste of the meat and the milk in the food doesn't spread to the pot without a liquid. Badei Hashulchan comments that we follow the Pri Megadim on this point since we hold that meat and milk aren't considered forbidden in it of itself but an absorbed taste (Taz 105 unlike Shach 105:17). The Yad Yehuda argues further that the food isn't rendered non-kosher since only the pieces that are in direct contact with the pot absorb the meat taste and only the rice in direct contact with the spoon absorb the milk taste and since absorbed taste doesn't transfer without a liquid everything is permitted. Badei Hashulchan leaves this discussion unresolved.</ref> Sephardim hold like that everything remains kosher.<ref>According to Shulchan Aruch 95:3 who follows the Ramban it is allows considered nat bar nat of kosher tastes since the milk taste from the spoon that goes into the food can't forbid the meat taste from the pot that came into the food without first becoming a third derivative taste which is permitted. Rama follows the Sefer Hatrumah who is strict and therefore leaves room for the above discussion.</ref> | ||
===Dairy or Meat Spoon Used in Parve Pot=== | ===Dairy or Meat Spoon Used in Parve Pot=== | ||
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## After the fact, if the meat dish had a piece of meat on it or even just grease and the dairy dish was clean, and they were washed together in the sink, both dishes are considered non-kosher. In a case of a large loss some say that the meat dish would be considered kosher, while the dairy would be considered non-kosher. The same is true of the opposite case.<ref>Shach 95:20 isn't certain whether we assume that an iruy cooks so much to infuse the taste of the meat into the dairy dish and then extract the non-kosher taste from the dairy dish and infuse it back into the meat dish. He concludes that we should be strict unless there's a large loss. Rabbi Akiva Eiger on the Shach 95:20 is strict even if there's a large loss if there was more than one pouring.</ref> | ## After the fact, if the meat dish had a piece of meat on it or even just grease and the dairy dish was clean, and they were washed together in the sink, both dishes are considered non-kosher. In a case of a large loss some say that the meat dish would be considered kosher, while the dairy would be considered non-kosher. The same is true of the opposite case.<ref>Shach 95:20 isn't certain whether we assume that an iruy cooks so much to infuse the taste of the meat into the dairy dish and then extract the non-kosher taste from the dairy dish and infuse it back into the meat dish. He concludes that we should be strict unless there's a large loss. Rabbi Akiva Eiger on the Shach 95:20 is strict even if there's a large loss if there was more than one pouring.</ref> | ||
# Hot water which was poured and the stream was broken is considered hot enough to impart flavor up to the depth of a peel but can’t transfer taste from one food to another. <ref>Shach 105:5 says that a stream that was poured and was broken can’t cause a transfer of taste from one food into another but can cause a transference of taste. Kaf HaChaim 105:32 limits this to food and says that it wouldn’t cause taste to be imparted into a pot.</ref> | # Hot water which was poured and the stream was broken is considered hot enough to impart flavor up to the depth of a peel but can’t transfer taste from one food to another. <ref>Shach 105:5 says that a stream that was poured and was broken can’t cause a transfer of taste from one food into another but can cause a transference of taste. Kaf HaChaim 105:32 limits this to food and says that it wouldn’t cause taste to be imparted into a pot.</ref> | ||
# If one is cleaning meat dishes in the same sink in which one cleaned milk dishes, if there's still some dairy remnant in the sink, it's forbidden to pour hot water there because at the time one pours the water the meat and milk are halachically cooked together even though one has no intention of using those remnants. <ref>Sefer [[Kashrut]] HaShulchan (Baser BeChalav 6:3) quoting Sh"t Yabia Omer 5:3 </ref> | # If one is cleaning meat dishes in the same sink in which one cleaned milk dishes, if there's still some dairy remnant in the sink, it's forbidden to pour hot water there because at the time one pours the water the meat and milk are halachically cooked together even though one has no intention of using those remnants. <ref>Sefer [[Kashrut]] HaShulchan (Baser BeChalav 6:3) quoting Sh"t Yabia Omer 5:3 </ref> Some say that technically, it is permitted but best to avoid.<Ref>Yalkut Yosef (v. 3 p. 174) writes nine factors to be lenient including: iruy doesn't cook according to Rashbam, since his intention isn't to cook the meat and milk it isn't derech bishul, and the meat and milk were already cooked..</ref> | ||
===Dishwashers=== | ===Dishwashers=== | ||
# According to Ashkenazim, some say that it is forbidden to use a dishwasher for meat and milk even one after the other and even if one uses different racks. <Ref>Badei Hashulchan 95:81. | # According to Ashkenazim, some say that it is forbidden to use a dishwasher for meat and milk even one after the other and even if one uses different racks. <Ref>Badei Hashulchan 95:81. | ||
* Rav Moshe Feinstein (Igrot Moshe OC 1:104, OC 3:58, YD 1:28-29, and YD 3:10-11) is lenient to use a dishwasher for meat and milk dishes consecutively with different racks. His reasoning is that the only concern of taste from the dirty dishes is Nat Bar Nat and therefore doesn't render the dishwasher meat or milk. He explains that it is permitted even initially and isn't considered like creating Nat Bar Nat. Also, he says that there is probably sixty times the beeyn in the actual pieces of leftovers on the plate. Yet, he says that a person should use different racks for meat and milk out of a concern that a piece of meat or milk got stuck onto the rack and taste directly got absorbed into the racks.</ref> Sephardim only allow using one dishwasher for meat and milk if they are used in different shifts and the dishes are first rinsed to remove the large pieces.<ref>Yalkut Yosef (Otzar Dinim L'isha p. 618), Yalkut Yosef (Isur Vheter v. 3 p. 485) only allows consecutive cycles. Yabia Omer YD 10:4 allows meat and milk dishes together. Rav Ovadia himself in the new edition of Yabia Omer 10:4 fnt. 6 added that it is better not to follow his teshuva to do it at the same time. Rabbi Assayag and Rabbi Wiesenfeld in Kashrut in the Kitchen Q&A p. 91 rule like Yalkut Yosef. | * Rav Moshe Feinstein (Igrot Moshe OC 1:104, OC 3:58, YD 1:28-29, and YD 3:10-11) is lenient to use a dishwasher for meat and milk dishes consecutively with different racks. His reasoning is that the only concern of taste from the dirty dishes is Nat Bar Nat and therefore doesn't render the dishwasher meat or milk. He explains that it is permitted even initially and isn't considered like creating Nat Bar Nat. Also, he says that there is probably sixty times the beeyn in the actual pieces of leftovers on the plate. Yet, he says that a person should use different racks for meat and milk out of a concern that a piece of meat or milk got stuck onto the rack and taste directly got absorbed into the racks.</ref> Sephardim only allow using one dishwasher for meat and milk if they are used in different shifts and the dishes are first rinsed to remove the large pieces.<ref>Yalkut Yosef (Otzar Dinim L'isha p. 618), Yalkut Yosef (Isur Vheter v. 3 p. 485) only allows consecutive cycles. Yabia Omer YD 10:4 allows meat and milk dishes together. Rav Ovadia himself in the new edition of Yabia Omer 10:4 fnt. 6 added that it is better not to follow his teshuva to do it at the same time. Rabbi Assayag and Rabbi Wiesenfeld in Kashrut in the Kitchen Q&A p. 91 rule like Yalkut Yosef. | ||
* Shaarei Shalom on Piskei Ben Ish Chai Basar Bchalav p. 143-5 is strict for all dishwashers even one after another. If the first cycle is with soap he is concerned for the fact that noten taam lifgam is only after the fact. He quotes Tzemech Tzedek 61, Minchat Yakov 57:26, and Shulchan Gavoha 95:7 who only allow the case of using ashes to clean dishes ( | * Shaarei Shalom on Piskei Ben Ish Chai Basar Bchalav p. 143-5 is strict for all dishwashers even one after another. If the first cycle is with soap he is concerned for the fact that noten taam lifgam is only after the fact. He quotes Tzemech Tzedek 61, Minchat Yakov 57:26, and Shulchan Gavoha 95:7 who only allow the case of using ashes to clean dishes (Shulchan Aruch 95:4) after the fact. Also, if the first cycle is without soap there is an issue because if the dishes are dirty everything becomes forbidden and if they're clean we don't rely on Shulchan Aruch 95:3 initially as Shach points out. | ||
* Horah Brurah 95:46 discusses whether the kula of 95:4 is permitted initially but concludes like Rav Ovadia that it is permitted even initially. | * Horah Brurah 95:46 discusses whether the kula of 95:4 is permitted initially but concludes like Rav Ovadia that it is permitted even initially. | ||
Magen Ba’adi 1:19 of Rabbi Matloud Abadie writes the exact same argument as Rav Ovadia. Or Letzion 3:10:11 in footnote implies the same position. | Magen Ba’adi 1:19 of Rabbi Matloud Abadie writes the exact same argument as Rav Ovadia. Or Letzion 3:10:11 in footnote implies the same position. | ||
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[[Category:Kashrut]] | [[Category:Kashrut]] | ||
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