Milk and Meat in the Kitchen: Difference between revisions
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Milk and Meat in the Kitchen (view source)
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==Meat and Dairy Equipment (Nat Bar Nat)== | ==Meat and Dairy Equipment (Nat Bar Nat)== | ||
===Parve Food Cooked with Meat or Dairy Equipment=== | ===Parve Food Cooked with Meat or Dairy Equipment=== | ||
# Parve food cooked in a meat pot | # Parve food cooked in a meat pot according to Ashkenazim should not be eaten together with dairy, but after the fact if it was cooked with dairy it would be permitted to be eaten. According to Sephardim it is permitted even initially to eat the parve food made with meat equipment with dairy.<ref>Shulchan Aruch and Rama YD 95:1. Gemara Chullin 111b cites a dispute between Rav and Shmuel whether a fish cooked in a meat pot can be eaten with dairy. The dispute depends on whether a taste imparted from a food into a utensil and back into a food is considered a significant taste. The conclusion of the gemara is that it is permitted. | ||
* The Rivan (cited by Tosfot s.v. hilchata) holds that it is true only if the fish was placed on a hot plate but not if it was roasted or cooked on a meat utensil. | * The Rivan (cited by Tosfot s.v. hilchata) holds that it is true only if the fish was placed on a hot plate but not if it was roasted or cooked on a meat utensil. | ||
* The Sefer Hatrumah (61) holds that it is true only if the fish was cooked in the meat utensil but not roasted. The Rosh Chullin 8:30 agrees. | * The Sefer Hatrumah (61) holds that it is true only if the fish was cooked in the meat utensil but not roasted. The Rosh Chullin 8:30 agrees. | ||
* Rashi (111b s.v. nat) writes that it is true whether the fish was cooked in the meat pot or was roasted on meat utensil. </ref> | * Rashi (111b s.v. nat) writes that it is true whether the fish was cooked in the meat pot or was roasted on meat utensil. </ref> | ||
# Parve food cooked in a dairy pot | # Parve food cooked in a dairy pot according to Ashkenazim should not be eaten together with meat, but after the fact if it was cooked with meat it would be permitted to be eaten. According to Sephardim it is permitted even initially to eat the parve food made with dairy equipment with meat.<ref>Shulchan Aruch and Rama Y.D. 95:1 | ||
* A few rishonim (Smak, Hagahot Maimoniyot, and Rabbenu Yerucham cited by Bet Yosef 95:1) write that nat bar nat is only permitted to be cooked with milk after the parve food was cooked in the meat pot and this is also the consensus of the majority of the achronim. The achronim debate why nat bar nat is only permitted after the fact. (See next note for discussion of those who hold it is totally permitted even initially.) | * A few rishonim (Smak, Hagahot Maimoniyot, and Rabbenu Yerucham cited by Bet Yosef 95:1) write that nat bar nat is only permitted to be cooked with milk after the parve food was cooked in the meat pot and this is also the consensus of the majority of the achronim. The achronim debate why nat bar nat is only permitted after the fact. (See next note for discussion of those who hold it is totally permitted even initially.) | ||
* Some ([https://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=44929&st=&pgnum=154 Minchat Cohen 1:12 s.v. vheneh dino] as understood by Pri Megadim M"Z 95:4) say that it is like ''ein mevatlin isur lechatchila'' because nat bar nat is similar to nullification. Others (Pri Chadash 95:1) hold it is a unique prohibition in this context. This argue whether after the fact if one intentionally created nat bar nat whether it would be forbidden. | * Some ([https://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=44929&st=&pgnum=154 Minchat Cohen 1:12 s.v. vheneh dino] as understood by Pri Megadim M"Z 95:4) say that it is like ''ein mevatlin isur lechatchila'' because nat bar nat is similar to nullification. Others (Pri Chadash 95:1) hold it is a unique prohibition in this context. This argue whether after the fact if one intentionally created nat bar nat whether it would be forbidden. | ||
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===Dairy Spoon Used to Mix Meat Pot Cooking Parve=== | ===Dairy Spoon Used to Mix Meat Pot Cooking Parve=== | ||
# If someone used a dairy pot, used for dairy within 24 hours, to cook parve and stirred it with a meat spoon, used for meat within 24 hours, the pot, the food, and the spoon are forbidden according to Ashkenazim.<ref>Rama 95:3, Badei Hashulchan 94:57</ref> | # If someone used a dairy pot, used for dairy within 24 hours, to cook parve and stirred it with a meat spoon, used for meat within 24 hours, the pot, the food, and the spoon are forbidden according to Ashkenazim.<ref>Rama 95:3, Badei Hashulchan 94:57</ref> | ||
# If the dairy pot and the meat spoon weren't used within 24 hours for their respective kind then they have no | # If the dairy pot and the meat spoon weren't used within 24 hours for their respective kind then they have no effect upon each other.<ref>Levush 95:3, Shulchan Aruch 94:4</ref> Nonetheless it is best to eat the food parve not with meat or milk.<reF>Badei Hashulchan 94:62</ref> | ||
# If the dairy pot or the meat spoon weren't used within 24 hours for their respective kind then they have no | # If the dairy pot or the meat spoon weren't used within 24 hours for their respective kind then they have no effect upon each other. However, the minhag is to treat the food like the one that wasn't used within 24 and the utensil that wasn't used within 24 hours as non-kosher.<ref>Rama 94:5</ref> | ||
# If a dairy spoon was used to mix a parve soup or food with liquids in a meat pot, according to Ashkenazim the food and the pot are rendered non-kosher. If there is sixty times the spoon in the soup the food and pot are kosher and the dairy spoon is rendered non-kosher. If the dairy spoon wasn't used within 24 hours the food and pot are kosher and the spoon is rendered non-kosher. According to Sephardim the food, pot, and spoon are kosher.<ref>Shulchan Aruch Y.D. 95:3</ref> | # If a dairy spoon was used to mix a parve soup or food with liquids in a meat pot, according to Ashkenazim the food and the pot are rendered non-kosher. If there is sixty times the spoon in the soup the food and pot are kosher and the dairy spoon is rendered non-kosher. If the dairy spoon wasn't used within 24 hours the food and pot are kosher and the spoon is rendered non-kosher. According to Sephardim the food, pot, and spoon are kosher.<ref>Shulchan Aruch Y.D. 95:3</ref> | ||
# If a dairy spoon was used to mix rice, noodles, or vegetables in a pot on the stove where there aren't liquids between the foods, some poskim hold that for Ashkenazim the food, the spoon, and the pot are rendered non-kosher. Others hold that only the food is non-kosher, while still others hold that everything remains kosher.<ref>Badei Hashulchan Biurim on 95:3 s.v. afilu cites the Chavot Daat 94:26 who writes that for rice or noodles where the water is poured out the taste of the dairy from the spoon goes directly into the food and the taste from the meat goes directly into the food rendering it nat bar nat of meat and milk together which is non-kosher. Therefore, everything else is rendered non-kosher. The Pri Megadim M"Z 94:7 agrees regarding the food but not for the pots since the absorbed taste of the meat and the milk in the food doesn't spread to the pot without a liquid. Badei Hashulchan comments that we follow the Pri Megadim on this point since we hold that meat and milk aren't considered forbidden in it of itself but an absorbed taste (Taz 105 unlike Shach 105:17). The Yad Yehuda argues further that the food isn't rendered non-kosher since only the pieces that are in direct contact with the pot absorb the meat taste and only the rice in direct contact with the spoon absorb the milk taste and since absorbed taste doesn't transfer without a liquid everything is permitted. Badei Hashulchan leaves this discussion unresolved.</ref> Sephardim hold like that everything remains kosher.<ref>According to Shulchan Aruch 95:3 who follows the Ramban it is allows considered nat bar nat of kosher tastes since the milk taste from the spoon that goes into the food can't forbid the meat taste from the pot that came into the food without first becoming a third derivative taste which is permitted. Rama follows the Sefer Hatrumah who is strict and therefore leaves room for the above discussion.</ref> | # If a dairy spoon was used to mix rice, noodles, or vegetables in a meat pot on the stove where there aren't liquids between the foods, some poskim hold that for Ashkenazim the food, the spoon, and the pot are rendered non-kosher. Others hold that only the food is non-kosher, while still others hold that everything remains kosher.<ref>Badei Hashulchan Biurim on 95:3 s.v. afilu cites the Chavot Daat 94:26 who writes that for rice or noodles where the water is poured out the taste of the dairy from the spoon goes directly into the food and the taste from the meat goes directly into the food rendering it nat bar nat of meat and milk together which is non-kosher. Therefore, everything else is rendered non-kosher. The Pri Megadim M"Z 94:7 agrees regarding the food but not for the pots since the absorbed taste of the meat and the milk in the food doesn't spread to the pot without a liquid. Badei Hashulchan comments that we follow the Pri Megadim on this point since we hold that meat and milk aren't considered forbidden in it of itself but an absorbed taste (Taz 105 unlike Shach 105:17). The Yad Yehuda argues further that the food isn't rendered non-kosher since only the pieces that are in direct contact with the pot absorb the meat taste and only the rice in direct contact with the spoon absorb the milk taste and since absorbed taste doesn't transfer without a liquid everything is permitted. Badei Hashulchan leaves this discussion unresolved.</ref> Sephardim hold like that everything remains kosher.<ref>According to Shulchan Aruch 95:3 who follows the Ramban it is allows considered nat bar nat of kosher tastes since the milk taste from the spoon that goes into the food can't forbid the meat taste from the pot that came into the food without first becoming a third derivative taste which is permitted. Rama follows the Sefer Hatrumah who is strict and therefore leaves room for the above discussion.</ref> | ||
===Dairy or Meat Spoon Used in Parve Pot=== | ===Dairy or Meat Spoon Used in Parve Pot=== | ||
# If a person used a dairy spoon to mix parve food in a parve pot then we should treat that pot like it is dairy. The same is true if a person used a meat spoon to mix parve food in a parve pot.<ref>Shulchan Aruch Y.D. 94:5, Shach 94:15, Taz (Daf Acharon 94:5), Chachmat Adam 48:3, Aruch Hashulchan 94:19, and Badei Hashulchan 94:53. The Shach and Taz both explain that the reason a person should use the parve pot that was used with a dairy spoon only for dairy is because once a person is going to establish it as dairy or meat anyway he should make it dairy since it accepted taste of dairy. However, in terms of principles of transferring taste, there is no concern of dairy taste in the pot since it is only nat bar nat that was infused into it.</ref> | # If a person used a dairy spoon to mix parve food in a parve pot then we should treat that pot like it is dairy. The same is true if a person used a meat spoon to mix parve food in a parve pot.<ref>Shulchan Aruch Y.D. 94:5, Shach 94:15, Taz (Daf Acharon 94:5), Chachmat Adam 48:3, Aruch Hashulchan 94:19, and Badei Hashulchan 94:53. The Shach and Taz both explain that the reason a person should use the parve pot that was used with a dairy spoon only for dairy is because once a person is going to establish it as dairy or meat anyway he should make it dairy since it accepted taste of dairy. However, in terms of principles of transferring taste, there is no concern of dairy taste in the pot since it is only nat bar nat that was infused into it.</ref> | ||
# If a person used a dairy spoon to mix parve food in a parve pot rendering the pot dairy and then a meat spoon was used to mix parve food in that same pot, that pot shouldn't be used at all.<ref>Shulchan Aruch and Rama Y.D. 94:5. See background and more opinions in next footnote.</ref> Some are lenient to say to treat the pot as meat.<ref>Shach 94:15. | # If a person used a dairy spoon to mix parve food in a parve pot rendering the pot dairy and then a meat spoon was used to mix parve food in that same pot, that pot shouldn't be used at all.<ref>Shulchan Aruch and Rama Y.D. 94:5. See background and more opinions in next footnote.</ref> Some are lenient to say to treat the pot as meat.<ref>Shach 94:15. | ||
* Hagahot Smak (213 n. 1*) writes that if a person used a dairy spoon and then a meat spoon with a parve pot that was cooking water the Smak held that the pot can't be used again, while the Rabbenu Peretz argues that the pot isn't | * Hagahot Smak (213 n. 1*) writes that if a person used a dairy spoon and then a meat spoon with a parve pot that was cooking water the Smak held that the pot can't be used again, while the Rabbenu Peretz argues that the pot isn't effected since the transfer of taste from the spoons to the pot is only nat bar nat. In fact, there are three steps of transfer of taste making it three nat's (dairy to spoon, spoon to water, water to pot). The Kol Bo 106 s.v. maseh ba, Orchot Chaim (Hilchot Isurei Machalot s.v. maseh ba), Isur Vheter Haaruch 35:10, Hagahot Shaarei Dura 85:15 (Bar Ilan version 85:18), and Maharshal (Isur Vheter 85:2) record this dispute as well. The Taz (Daf Acharon 94:5) writes that the Rabbenu Peretz was only lenient when he was discussing a case that the meat spoon was used after 24 hours of the dairy spoon being used with the pot. If it was a case where they were both within 24 hours he would agree that the pot is forbidden. That justifies the Shulchan Aruch 94:5 and Rama. | ||
* The Shach 94:15 (also in Kuntres Acharon 94:5) accepts that such was the case of Rabbenu Peretz however he would be lenient in either case. This is also the contention of the Isur Vheter Haaruch 35:11. Ultimately, as long as there are three nat's even those who are strict on nat bar nat would agree to be lenient and certainly after the fact. Therefore, the pot which had the dairy and meat spoon used with it sequentially is permitted. The Taz disagrees and explains that even though it is an example of nat bar nat, nonetheless one can't cause nat bar nat. If a pot is established as meat then it isn't make forbidden because of nat bar nat. On the other hand, since it was only made forbidden because of nat bar nat to begin with, it is established as ''lechatchila dairy'' and when the meat spoon is used afterwards it is ''lechatchila meat'' and that is a contradiction. Therefore, the pot can't be used for meat or dairy. | * The Shach 94:15 (also in Kuntres Acharon 94:5) accepts that such was the case of Rabbenu Peretz however he would be lenient in either case. This is also the contention of the Isur Vheter Haaruch 35:11. Ultimately, as long as there are three nat's even those who are strict on nat bar nat would agree to be lenient and certainly after the fact. Therefore, the pot which had the dairy and meat spoon used with it sequentially is permitted. The Taz disagrees and explains that even though it is an example of nat bar nat, nonetheless one can't cause nat bar nat. If a pot is established as meat then it isn't make forbidden because of nat bar nat. On the other hand, since it was only made forbidden because of nat bar nat to begin with, it is established as ''lechatchila dairy'' and when the meat spoon is used afterwards it is ''lechatchila meat'' and that is a contradiction. Therefore, the pot can't be used for meat or dairy. | ||
* Gra 94:16, Pri Chadash 94:14, Chachmat Adam 48:3, and Kaf Hachaim 94:47 follow the Shach. Aruch Hashulchan 94:18 and Badei Hashulchan 94:52 follow the Shulchan Aruch, Rama, and Taz. </ref> After the fact if a person used that pot the food isn't forbidden.<ref>Rama 94:5</ref> | * Gra 94:16, Pri Chadash 94:14, Chachmat Adam 48:3, and Kaf Hachaim 94:47 follow the Shach. Aruch Hashulchan 94:18 and Badei Hashulchan 94:52 follow the Shulchan Aruch, Rama, and Taz. </ref> After the fact if a person used that pot the food isn't forbidden.<ref>Rama 94:5</ref> | ||
# If the parve food in the pot was sixty times the spoons then they have no | # If the parve food in the pot was sixty times the spoons then they have no effect on the pot.<ref>Shulchan Aruch 94:5, Aruch Hashulchan 94:19, Badei Hashulchan 94:51</ref> Additionally, if the spoons were not used within 24 hours for meat or milk they have no effect on the pot.<ref>Shulchan Aruch 94:5, Badei Hashulchan 94:50 </ref> | ||
==Transference of Taste== | ==Transference of Taste== | ||
