Milk and Meat in the Kitchen: Difference between revisions
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* Nat bar nat with ''isur mashahu'': Ritva Chullin 112a s.v. garir writes that nat bar nat does not even leave a minute amount of the original food and as such is permitted. See also Magen Avraham 447:31. Gra YD 108:9 uses this to explain why nat bar nat is permitted after cooked and does not need to be avoided at that point. This seems to work best with the Rashba and Ran's approach above, but according to the Smak there is always a minute amount of the original taste that remains in the secondary taste although it is nullified.</ref> Some even permit cooking the parve food in the meat pot to eat it with dairy.<ref>Rav Ovadia Yosef in Yabia Omer YD 9:4 and Rav Shlomo Amar in Shema Shlomo 1:2, 2:4-5. Or Hahalacha (by R' Makis 95:1) is lenient and cites Halichot Olam (Korach n. 11) and Tefila Lmoshe 3:12. However, Horah Brurah 95:1 holds that it is only permitted after the fact. He cites Zivchei Tzedek 95:2 Kaf Hachaim 95:1, Ben Ish Chai Korach 13, Rav Ben Tzion Abba Shaul, and Shemesh Umagen 2:42 who hold that nat bar nat is only after the fact.</ref> | * Nat bar nat with ''isur mashahu'': Ritva Chullin 112a s.v. garir writes that nat bar nat does not even leave a minute amount of the original food and as such is permitted. See also Magen Avraham 447:31. Gra YD 108:9 uses this to explain why nat bar nat is permitted after cooked and does not need to be avoided at that point. This seems to work best with the Rashba and Ran's approach above, but according to the Smak there is always a minute amount of the original taste that remains in the secondary taste although it is nullified.</ref> Some even permit cooking the parve food in the meat pot to eat it with dairy.<ref>Rav Ovadia Yosef in Yabia Omer YD 9:4 and Rav Shlomo Amar in Shema Shlomo 1:2, 2:4-5. Or Hahalacha (by R' Makis 95:1) is lenient and cites Halichot Olam (Korach n. 11) and Tefila Lmoshe 3:12. However, Horah Brurah 95:1 holds that it is only permitted after the fact. He cites Zivchei Tzedek 95:2 Kaf Hachaim 95:1, Ben Ish Chai Korach 13, Rav Ben Tzion Abba Shaul, and Shemesh Umagen 2:42 who hold that nat bar nat is only after the fact.</ref> | ||
# If the meat pot wasn't used within 24 hours for meat, then if something parve cooks in it, the parve food can be eaten together with dairy even initially. However, one shouldn't use a meat pot even if it hasn't been used within 24 hours to cook parve food that one intends to eat with dairy. The same is true of dairy and meat vice versa.<ref>Rama 95:2 writes that if the pot was eino ben yomo there's no issue of nat bar nat. Badei Hashulchan 95:33 and Chachmat Adam 48:2 clarify that this means after the fact that the parve food was cooked in a meat pot it is considered parve and can be eaten with cheese even initially. However, one shouldn't cook the parve food in an eino ben yomo meat pot if one plans to eat that food with dairy. Yet, the Gra argues that it is permitted even initially. Laws of Kashrut p. 162 fnt. 44 cites Rav Elyashiv has holding like the Chachmat Adam unlike the Gra. Rav Mordechai Willig in Chevrusa Oct. 1990 p. 5 agrees. </ref> According to Sephardim all cases of cooking parve food in a meat pot in order to eat it together with dairy are permitted.<ref>Shulchan Aruch YD 95:1</ref> | # If the meat pot wasn't used within 24 hours for meat, then if something parve cooks in it, the parve food can be eaten together with dairy even initially. However, one shouldn't use a meat pot even if it hasn't been used within 24 hours to cook parve food that one intends to eat with dairy. The same is true of dairy and meat vice versa.<ref>Rama 95:2 writes that if the pot was eino ben yomo there's no issue of nat bar nat. Badei Hashulchan 95:33 and Chachmat Adam 48:2 clarify that this means after the fact that the parve food was cooked in a meat pot it is considered parve and can be eaten with cheese even initially. However, one shouldn't cook the parve food in an eino ben yomo meat pot if one plans to eat that food with dairy. Yet, the Gra argues that it is permitted even initially. Laws of Kashrut p. 162 fnt. 44 cites Rav Elyashiv has holding like the Chachmat Adam unlike the Gra. Rav Mordechai Willig in Chevrusa Oct. 1990 p. 5 agrees. </ref> According to Sephardim all cases of cooking parve food in a meat pot in order to eat it together with dairy are permitted.<ref>Shulchan Aruch YD 95:1</ref> | ||
# Parve food cooked in a meat pot can be eaten with dairy utensils but the parve food shouldn't be poured directly from the meat pot onto a dairy utensil. The same is true of the opposite case.<ref>Rama Y.D. 95:2. The Shach 95:5 explains that one shouldn't pour directly from the meat pot onto the dairy utensil as the Rama writes however after the fact it is permitted since the infusions of nat bar nat taste are consecutive. Badei Hashulchan 95:27 agrees that we should be strict about pouring. He explains that the reason that we're lenient about using utensils of the other type for nat bar nat is because the entire concern of meat and milk here is rabbinic since there's no combination of actual meat or milk but only its tastes.</ref> It is permitted to even initially indirectly pour ( | # Parve food cooked in a meat pot can be eaten with dairy utensils but the parve food shouldn't be poured directly from the meat pot onto a dairy utensil. The same is true of the opposite case.<ref>Rama Y.D. 95:2. The Shach 95:5 explains that one shouldn't pour directly from the meat pot onto the dairy utensil as the Rama writes however after the fact it is permitted since the infusions of nat bar nat taste are consecutive. Badei Hashulchan 95:27 agrees that we should be strict about pouring. He explains that the reason that we're lenient about using utensils of the other type for nat bar nat is because the entire concern of meat and milk here is rabbinic since there's no combination of actual meat or milk but only its tastes.</ref> It is permitted to even initially indirectly pour ([[Iruy Shenifsak Hakiluach]]) the food into the dairy utensil from a meat pot.<ref>Badei Hashulchan 95:72 quoting the Kereti Upeleti and Pri Megadim</ref> | ||
# According to Ashkenazim and some Sephardim one shouldn't cook the parve in a meat pot in order to eat it with dairy or vice versa. After the fact even if one intentionally made the food in a meat pot in order to eat with dairy most poskim hold that it is nonetheless permitted to eat with dairy.<ref>Pitchei Teshuva Shraga p. 185 cites Pri Chadash 95:1, Kereti 95:1, Zivchei Ztedek 95:5, and Kaf Hachaim 95:5 as lenient, against Pri Megadim MZ 95:4 citing Minchat Kohen, Bet Meir 97 s.v. bs"a, Aruch Hashulchan 95:10 as strict. Ben Ish Chai Shana Sheniya Korach n. 14 is lenient.</ref> | # According to Ashkenazim and some Sephardim one shouldn't cook the parve in a meat pot in order to eat it with dairy or vice versa. After the fact even if one intentionally made the food in a meat pot in order to eat with dairy most poskim hold that it is nonetheless permitted to eat with dairy.<ref>Pitchei Teshuva Shraga p. 185 cites Pri Chadash 95:1, Kereti 95:1, Zivchei Ztedek 95:5, and Kaf Hachaim 95:5 as lenient, against Pri Megadim MZ 95:4 citing Minchat Kohen, Bet Meir 97 s.v. bs"a, Aruch Hashulchan 95:10 as strict. Ben Ish Chai Shana Sheniya Korach n. 14 is lenient.</ref> | ||
# Tasting transferring from food to food isn't considered nat bar nat. Nat bar nat needs to involve a utensil.<ref>Pri Megadim MZ 95:1, Chavot Daat 95:1</ref> If there is a transfer from food to utensil to food that is nat bar nat. From utensil to food to food or food to food to utensil are questionably nat bar nat.<ref>Pri Megadim MZ 95:1 holds that nat bar nat must be from a food to a utensil and then utensil to food. However, the Imrei Binah 95:1 writes that from the Shaarei Dura 60 nat bar nat can't be from food to food but with any utensil that is sufficient.</ref> | |||
===Roasting, Baking, Soaking=== | ===Roasting, Baking, Soaking=== | ||
# Some Ashkenazim are more strict if the parve food is roasted or baked as opposed to cooked in a dairy equipment to treat it like dairy food, while others consider it like the general category of dairy equipment. This has ramifications even after the fact if that parve food is mixed with meat. The same is true of parve food roasted or baked with meat equipment.<ref>The Rama Y.D. 95:2 rules that after the fact whether the parve food was cooked, roasted, or baked with the meat equipment it is considered parve. Shach explains that once the parve food is mixed together with the dairy it is permitted. However, the Maharshal (Isur Vheter 57:2) is concerned for the opinion of the Rosh that even after the fact if the parve food was roasted or baked with meat equipment they are considered meat. Shach 95:4 cites this opinion. The [https://oukosher.org/halacha-yomis/i-bought-a-box-of-cornflake-crumbs-that-were-labeled-ou-d-the-ous-webbe-rebbe-kosherqou-org-told-me-that-this-ou-d-product-does-not-contain-dairy-ingredients-but-it-was-made-on-dairy-equ/?category OU (Halacha Yomi, Feb 12 2020)] was lenient in a case where dairy equipment bread crumbs were baked on chicken, even though it is a dispute between the Rama and Maharshal, since it is possible that the bread crumbs were made with utensils that weren't used within 24 hours. See Shaarei Deah 95:2 cited by Darkei Teshuva 95:17 who is lenient with nat bar nat on chicken. Badei Hashulchan 95:23 is strict.</ref> Most poskim hold that roasting is no different than cooking.<ref>Badei Hashulchan 95:25 is lenient for the Rama after the fact based on the Pri Chadash, Minchat Yakov, and Chachmat Adam 48:1. Aruch Hashulchan 95:12 is lenient. The Laws of Kashrus by R' Forst p. 159 leaves the dispute unresolved.</ref> | # Some Ashkenazim are more strict if the parve food is roasted or baked as opposed to cooked in a dairy equipment to treat it like dairy food, while others consider it like the general category of dairy equipment. This has ramifications even after the fact if that parve food is mixed with meat. The same is true of parve food roasted or baked with meat equipment.<ref>The Rama Y.D. 95:2 rules that after the fact whether the parve food was cooked, roasted, or baked with the meat equipment it is considered parve. Shach explains that once the parve food is mixed together with the dairy it is permitted. However, the Maharshal (Isur Vheter 57:2) is concerned for the opinion of the Rosh that even after the fact if the parve food was roasted or baked with meat equipment they are considered meat. Shach 95:4 cites this opinion. Pri Chadash 95:4 and Minchat Yakov 57:3 disagree and hold that roasting is only forbidden initially not after the fact. The [https://oukosher.org/halacha-yomis/i-bought-a-box-of-cornflake-crumbs-that-were-labeled-ou-d-the-ous-webbe-rebbe-kosherqou-org-told-me-that-this-ou-d-product-does-not-contain-dairy-ingredients-but-it-was-made-on-dairy-equ/?category OU (Halacha Yomi, Feb 12 2020)] was lenient in a case where dairy equipment bread crumbs were baked on chicken, even though it is a dispute between the Rama and Maharshal, since it is possible that the bread crumbs were made with utensils that weren't used within 24 hours. See Shaarei Deah 95:2 cited by Darkei Teshuva 95:17 who is lenient with nat bar nat on chicken. Badei Hashulchan 95:23 is strict.</ref> Most poskim hold that roasting is no different than cooking.<ref>Badei Hashulchan 95:25 is lenient for the Rama after the fact based on the Pri Chadash, Minchat Yakov, and Chachmat Adam 48:1. Aruch Hashulchan 95:12 is lenient. The Laws of Kashrus by R' Forst p. 159 leaves the dispute unresolved.</ref> | ||
#If the parve food soaked in a meat or dairy pot there is an unresolved discussion if that would render the food meat or dairy equipment.<ref>Rabbi Akiva Eiger 95:2 poses a question whether food soaked in meat or dairy equipment is considered like food cooked in meat or dairy equipment or it is less of a concern. Badei Hashulchan 95:24 cites this. Darkei Teshuva 95:17 quotes a discussion about it including the Kereti who is strict and Shaarei Deah who is lenient.</ref> | #If the parve food soaked in a meat or dairy pot there is an unresolved discussion if that would render the food meat or dairy equipment.<ref>Rabbi Akiva Eiger 95:2 poses a question whether food soaked in meat or dairy equipment is considered like food cooked in meat or dairy equipment or it is less of a concern. Badei Hashulchan 95:24 cites this. Darkei Teshuva 95:17 quotes a discussion about it including the Kereti who is strict and Shaarei Deah who is lenient.</ref> | ||
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# Some poskim considered the possibility that zeyia doesn't get into a food that is itself steaming. It certainly isn't accepted but some poskim use it as a factor.<ref>Rosh 20:26 isn't sure if the zeyia of a bottom pot affects a top pot if the top pot itself is steaming. His reason is that in the laws of tumah having two hot pots doesn't transfer liquids. Aruch Hashulchan 92:55 considers this possibility. Maharsham 3:208 and Horah Brurah 92:8 s.v. hakol write that this possibility can be used as a factor in certain cases.</ref> Others disregard this idea.<ref>Bet Shlomo YD 164 disregards this idea since the Rosh rejected it.</ref> | # Some poskim considered the possibility that zeyia doesn't get into a food that is itself steaming. It certainly isn't accepted but some poskim use it as a factor.<ref>Rosh 20:26 isn't sure if the zeyia of a bottom pot affects a top pot if the top pot itself is steaming. His reason is that in the laws of tumah having two hot pots doesn't transfer liquids. Aruch Hashulchan 92:55 considers this possibility. Maharsham 3:208 and Horah Brurah 92:8 s.v. hakol write that this possibility can be used as a factor in certain cases.</ref> Others disregard this idea.<ref>Bet Shlomo YD 164 disregards this idea since the Rosh rejected it.</ref> | ||
# Some poskim hold that solid foods do not have any zeyia and only liquids have zeyia.<ref> Rama in Torat Chatat 35:6 writes that foods don't have zeyia. This can be explained in two ways: (1) The Pri Megadim (seder v’hanahagot hashoel im hanishal b’isur v’heter seder 2 no. 37) says that zeiya is only an issue from liquids and not dry foods based on the laws of tumat mashkin. (2) Rav Moshe in Igrot Moshe YD 1:40 says that there is an issue of steam from dry foods if you can see it, otherwise you don’t need to assume that there is steam from dry dishes. This is implied in the language of Rama YD 108:1. | # Some poskim hold that solid foods do not have any zeyia and only liquids have zeyia.<ref> Rama in Torat Chatat 35:6 writes that foods don't have zeyia. This can be explained in two ways: (1) The Pri Megadim (seder v’hanahagot hashoel im hanishal b’isur v’heter seder 2 no. 37) says that zeiya is only an issue from liquids and not dry foods based on the laws of tumat mashkin. (2) Rav Moshe in Igrot Moshe YD 1:40 says that there is an issue of steam from dry foods if you can see it, otherwise you don’t need to assume that there is steam from dry dishes. This is implied in the language of Rama YD 108:1. | ||
* Those who hold that there's no zeyia for solid foods: Bet Meir OC 461, Masat Moshe YD 1:4, Igrot Moshe 1:40, Minchat Shlomo 2:51. Horah Brurah 92:86 | * Those who hold that there's no zeyia for solid foods: Bet Meir OC 461, Masat Moshe YD 1:4, Igrot Moshe 1:40, and Minchat Shlomo 2:51. Horah Brurah 92:86 and Rav Moshe Heinemann (Guide to Halachos p. 58) agree with Rav Moshe. For this purpose, Rav Moshe Heinemann (Guide to Halachos p. 58) writes that pizza and lasagna are not liquids.</ref> Many poskim disagree.<ref>Minchat Yakov 35:10 who is bothered with the Rama's statement denying zeyia of solid foods because of Tur and Shulchan Aruch OC 451:15 which assumes steam even from dry dishes. He answers three answers: (1) zeyia of solids causes a transfer of a tiny bit and on pesach that is an issue, (2) food zeyia is minimal but if the utensils are used for zeyia frequently it adds up, (3) when doing kashering we should do so in the most ideal form and remove the small amount of zeyia from solids. Based on these Torat Chatat's answers it sounds like there is zeyia from solid foods to be concerned about lechatchila going forward. This is also the opinion of the Shoel Umeishiv 5:4, Tzur Yakov 68, Bet Shlomo YD 164, Yabia Omer 5:7:5, and Or Letzion 3:10:2. Aruch Hashulchan 92:54 writes that it doesn't depend on whether it is solid or liquid but if it is fatty. </ref> | ||
# A minority opinion holds that zeyia is burnt up in an oven<ref>Even Yikara 3:18 cited by Yabia Omer 5:7 holds that zeyia is burnt up in an oven if it has an exposed fire in the oven but not if it has a fire behind a wall (heseko mbchutz). Rav Ben Tzion Wosner (Or Yisrael 5763 year 8 no. 4:34 pp. 92-102) holds that zeyia is burnt up in an oven. Sheilat Yavetz (1:93) holds that the zeyia is burnt up in the ovens. Maharsham 3:208 applies this reason to be lenient even if the fire is behind the wall of the oven. He isn't ready to be lenient initially.</ref> but isn't accepted.<ref>Igrot Moshe 1:40, Minchat Yitzchak 5:20, Chelkat Yakov 2:136</ref> | # A minority opinion holds that zeyia is burnt up in an oven<ref>Even Yikara 3:18 cited by Yabia Omer 5:7 holds that zeyia is burnt up in an oven if it has an exposed fire in the oven but not if it has a fire behind a wall (heseko mbchutz). Rav Ben Tzion Wosner (Or Yisrael 5763 year 8 no. 4:34 pp. 92-102) holds that zeyia is burnt up in an oven. Sheilat Yavetz (1:93) holds that the zeyia is burnt up in the ovens. Maharsham 3:208 applies this reason to be lenient even if the fire is behind the wall of the oven. He isn't ready to be lenient initially.</ref> but isn't accepted.<ref>Igrot Moshe 1:40, Minchat Yitzchak 5:20, Chelkat Yakov 2:136</ref> | ||
# A minority opinion holds that zeyia dissipates in an oven that has a small vent.<ref>Aruch Hashulchan 92:55 writes that there's no concern of zeyia in an open area as he proves from Mishna Machshirin 5:10. Therefore he writes that he isn't concerned for zeyia in ovens where there is a lot of airspace.</ref> | # A minority opinion holds that zeyia dissipates in an oven that has a small vent.<ref>Aruch Hashulchan 92:55 writes that there's no concern of zeyia in an open area as he proves from Mishna Machshirin 5:10. Therefore he writes that he isn't concerned for zeyia in ovens where there is a lot of airspace.</ref> | ||
