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Milk and Meat in the Kitchen: Difference between revisions
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* The Sefer Hatrumah (61) holds that it is true only if the fish was cooked in the meat utensil but not roasted. The Rosh Chullin 8:30 agrees. | * The Sefer Hatrumah (61) holds that it is true only if the fish was cooked in the meat utensil but not roasted. The Rosh Chullin 8:30 agrees. | ||
* Rashi (111b s.v. nat) writes that it is true whether the fish was cooked in the meat pot or was roasted on meat utensil. </ref> | * Rashi (111b s.v. nat) writes that it is true whether the fish was cooked in the meat pot or was roasted on meat utensil. </ref> | ||
# Parve food cooked in a dairy pot is considered dairy equipment and according to Ashkenazim it shouldn't be eaten together with meat but after the fact if it was cooked with meat it would be permitted to be eaten. According to Sephardim it is permitted even initially to eat the parve food made with dairy equipment with meat.<ref>Shulchan Aruch and Rama YD 95:1</ref> Some even permit cooking the parve food in the meat pot to eat it with dairy.<ref>Yabia Omer YD 9:4</ref> | # Parve food cooked in a dairy pot is considered dairy equipment and according to Ashkenazim it shouldn't be eaten together with meat but after the fact if it was cooked with meat it would be permitted to be eaten. According to Sephardim it is permitted even initially to eat the parve food made with dairy equipment with meat.<ref>Shulchan Aruch and Rama YD 95:1</ref> Some even permit cooking the parve food in the meat pot to eat it with dairy.<ref>Rav Ovadia Yosef in Yabia Omer YD 9:4 and Rav Shlomo Amar in Shema Shlomo 1:2, 2:4-5. However, Horah Brurah 95:1 holds that it is only permitted after the fact. He cites Zivchei Tzedek 95:2 Kaf Hachaim 95:1, Ben Ish Chai Korach 13, Rav Ben Tzion Abba Shaul, and Shemesh Umagen 2:42 who hold that nat bar nat is only after the fact.</ref> | ||
# If the meat pot wasn't used within 24 hours for meat, then if something parve cooks in it, the parve food can be eaten together with dairy even initially. However, one shouldn't use a meat pot even if it hasn't been used within 24 hours to cook parve food that one intends to eat with dairy. The same is true of dairy and meat vice versa.<ref>Rama 95:2 writes that if the pot was eino ben yomo there's no issue of nat bar nat. Badei Hashulchan 95:33 and Chachmat Adam 48:2 clarify that this means after the fact that the parve food was cooked in a meat pot it is considered parve and can be eaten with cheese even initially. However, one shouldn't cook the parve food in an eino ben yomo meat pot if one plans to eat that food with dairy. Yet, the Gra argues that it is permitted even initially.</ref> According to Sephardim all cases of cooking parve food in a meat pot in order to eat it together with dairy are permitted.<ref>Shulchan Aruch YD 95:1</ref> | # If the meat pot wasn't used within 24 hours for meat, then if something parve cooks in it, the parve food can be eaten together with dairy even initially. However, one shouldn't use a meat pot even if it hasn't been used within 24 hours to cook parve food that one intends to eat with dairy. The same is true of dairy and meat vice versa.<ref>Rama 95:2 writes that if the pot was eino ben yomo there's no issue of nat bar nat. Badei Hashulchan 95:33 and Chachmat Adam 48:2 clarify that this means after the fact that the parve food was cooked in a meat pot it is considered parve and can be eaten with cheese even initially. However, one shouldn't cook the parve food in an eino ben yomo meat pot if one plans to eat that food with dairy. Yet, the Gra argues that it is permitted even initially.</ref> According to Sephardim all cases of cooking parve food in a meat pot in order to eat it together with dairy are permitted.<ref>Shulchan Aruch YD 95:1</ref> | ||
# Parve food cooked in a meat pot can be eaten with dairy utensils but the parve food shouldn't be poured directly from the meat pot onto a dairy utensil. The same is true of the opposite case.<ref>Rama 95:2. The Shach 95:5 explains that one shouldn't pour directly from the meat pot onto the dairy utensil as the Rama writes however after the fact it is permitted since the infusions of nat bar nat taste are consecutive. Badei Hashulchan 95:27 agrees that we should be strict about pouring. He explains that the reason that we're lenient about using utensils of the other type for nat bar nat is because the entire concern of meat and milk here is rabbinic since there's no combination of actual meat or milk but only its tastes.</ref> | # Parve food cooked in a meat pot can be eaten with dairy utensils but the parve food shouldn't be poured directly from the meat pot onto a dairy utensil. The same is true of the opposite case.<ref>Rama 95:2. The Shach 95:5 explains that one shouldn't pour directly from the meat pot onto the dairy utensil as the Rama writes however after the fact it is permitted since the infusions of nat bar nat taste are consecutive. Badei Hashulchan 95:27 agrees that we should be strict about pouring. He explains that the reason that we're lenient about using utensils of the other type for nat bar nat is because the entire concern of meat and milk here is rabbinic since there's no combination of actual meat or milk but only its tastes.</ref> | ||
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* Rav Ben Tzion Wosner (Or Yisrael 5763 year 8 no. 4:34 pp. 92-102), son of Rav Shmuel Wosner, writes that ovens aren’t an issue of steam because since the walls are so hot they burn up the steam before it is absorbed. This concept can be found in the Maharsham 3:208 though that isn’t his conclusion and advises being strict. Yavetz (1:93) is lenient and is adamant about this issue. | * Rav Ben Tzion Wosner (Or Yisrael 5763 year 8 no. 4:34 pp. 92-102), son of Rav Shmuel Wosner, writes that ovens aren’t an issue of steam because since the walls are so hot they burn up the steam before it is absorbed. This concept can be found in the Maharsham 3:208 though that isn’t his conclusion and advises being strict. Yavetz (1:93) is lenient and is adamant about this issue. | ||
* Minchat Yitzchak 5:20 and Chelkat Yakov 2:136 are strict. Chut Shani Pesach 10:2 writes that one should kosher an oven between meat and milk by waiting 24 hours and heating it up to its highest temperature which is certainly libun kal. | * Minchat Yitzchak 5:20 and Chelkat Yakov 2:136 are strict. Chut Shani Pesach 10:2 writes that one should kosher an oven between meat and milk by waiting 24 hours and heating it up to its highest temperature which is certainly libun kal. | ||
* Concerning dry dishes the Pri Megadim (seder v’hanahagot hashoel im hanishal b’isur v’heter seder 2 no. 37) says that zeiya is only an issue from liquids and not dry foods. Rav Moshe in Igrot Moshe YD 1:40 says that there is an issue of steam from dry foods if you can see it, otherwise you don’t need to assume that there is steam from dry dishes. Torat Chatat 35:6 implies like the Pri Megadim. See Minchat Yakov 35:10 who is bothered because of Shulchan Aruch OC 451:15 which assumes steam even from dry dishes. He answers that it causes a transfer of a tiny bit and on pesach that is an issue, it is used many times, and when doing kashering we should do so lechatchila. </ref> | * Concerning dry dishes the Pri Megadim (seder v’hanahagot hashoel im hanishal b’isur v’heter seder 2 no. 37) says that zeiya is only an issue from liquids and not dry foods. Rav Moshe in Igrot Moshe YD 1:40 says that there is an issue of steam from dry foods if you can see it, otherwise you don’t need to assume that there is steam from dry dishes. Torat Chatat 35:6 implies like the Pri Megadim. See Minchat Yakov 35:10 who is bothered because of Shulchan Aruch OC 451:15 which assumes steam even from dry dishes. He answers that it causes a transfer of a tiny bit and on pesach that is an issue, it is used many times, and when doing kashering we should do so lechatchila. </ref> Some Ashkenazic poskim permit using an oven for meat and milk consecutively as long as there are no spills or residue on the oven walls or floor.<ref>Rav Hershel Schachter cited by Laws of Kashrut by Rabbi Pinchas Cohen p. 30 fnt. 7.</ref> | ||
# According to Sephardim, many Poskim rule that nowadays a person should have separate ovens for [[cooking]] meat and for [[cooking]] milk.<ref> Rabbi Mansour says this lechatchila at dailyhalacha.com. [http://www.dailyhalacha.com/displayRead.asp?readID=491] This is also the opinion of R' Shmuel Pinchasi quoted at dailyhalacha.com. [http://www.dailyhalacha.com/displayRead.asp?readID=645] </ref> In cases where this is difficult, one can be lenient to use one oven so long as one covers all food placed in the oven. Alternatively, if one cooks a solid food in the oven over 24 hours apart from of the opposite type and one also preheated it for 20 minutes.<ref>Yabia Omer 5:7:8, Chut Shani Pesach 10:2. He explains that although preheating it isn't going to be libun chamur it is sufficient to kosher it with libun kal since it is only hetera baala (Shulchan Aruch O.C. 509:5). Rav Moshe Feinstein in Iggerot Moshe Y"D 1:40. Chacham Ovadia Yosef quoted by Rabbi Mansour [http://www.dailyhalacha.com/displayRead.asp?readID=491&txtSearch=separate%20ovens] writes that bedieved if one didn't wait 24 hours before cooking the opposite type of food, the food would nevertheless be permissible. However, R' Ovadia states that ideally one should wait 24 hours between cooking the two foods and that one should first let the oven run for 15 minutes before placing the second food into the oven. </ref> After the fact, one may be lenient.<ref>Yabia Omer YD 5:7:8. His reasons for being lenient include: zeyia is only rabbinic ([http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=22440&st=&pgnum=17 Sh"t Peni Yehoshua 13], Yesodei Yeshurun v. 6 p. 158), it is a dispute, it might not come out into the new food, it might be burnt up, and it have dissipated through a vent. He is lenient after the fact even within 24 hours even on liquids cooked one after another. </ref> | # According to Sephardim, many Poskim rule that nowadays a person should have separate ovens for [[cooking]] meat and for [[cooking]] milk.<ref> Rabbi Mansour says this lechatchila at dailyhalacha.com. [http://www.dailyhalacha.com/displayRead.asp?readID=491] This is also the opinion of R' Shmuel Pinchasi quoted at dailyhalacha.com. [http://www.dailyhalacha.com/displayRead.asp?readID=645] </ref> In cases where this is difficult, one can be lenient to use one oven so long as one covers all food placed in the oven. Alternatively, if one cooks a solid food in the oven over 24 hours apart from of the opposite type and one also preheated it for 20 minutes.<ref>Yabia Omer 5:7:8, Chut Shani Pesach 10:2. He explains that although preheating it isn't going to be libun chamur it is sufficient to kosher it with libun kal since it is only hetera baala (Shulchan Aruch O.C. 509:5). Rav Moshe Feinstein in Iggerot Moshe Y"D 1:40. Chacham Ovadia Yosef quoted by Rabbi Mansour [http://www.dailyhalacha.com/displayRead.asp?readID=491&txtSearch=separate%20ovens] writes that bedieved if one didn't wait 24 hours before cooking the opposite type of food, the food would nevertheless be permissible. However, R' Ovadia states that ideally one should wait 24 hours between cooking the two foods and that one should first let the oven run for 15 minutes before placing the second food into the oven. </ref> After the fact, one may be lenient.<ref>Yabia Omer YD 5:7:8. His reasons for being lenient include: zeyia is only rabbinic ([http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=22440&st=&pgnum=17 Sh"t Peni Yehoshua 13], Yesodei Yeshurun v. 6 p. 158), it is a dispute, it might not come out into the new food, it might be burnt up, and it have dissipated through a vent. He is lenient after the fact even within 24 hours even on liquids cooked one after another. </ref> | ||
## According to some, if the foods are dry foods that don't produce vapors, then one may place the foods in the oven one after the other (but not at the same time).<ref>Rav Moshe Feinstein in Iggerot Moshe Y"D 1:40. Rav Ovadia Yosef in Yabia Omer 5:7:8 writes that those who follow this opinion have what to rely upon though he recommends being stricter. </ref> Others rule that one should wait 24 hours between cooking the foods and that one should first let the oven run for 15 minutes before placing the second food into the oven.<ref>Chacham Ovadia Yosef quoted by Rabbi Mansour at dailyhalacha.com. [http://www.dailyhalacha.com/displayRead.asp?readID=491] </ref> | ## According to some, if the foods are dry foods that don't produce vapors, then one may place the foods in the oven one after the other (but not at the same time).<ref>Rav Moshe Feinstein in Iggerot Moshe Y"D 1:40. Rav Ovadia Yosef in Yabia Omer 5:7:8 writes that those who follow this opinion have what to rely upon though he recommends being stricter. </ref> Others rule that one should wait 24 hours between cooking the foods and that one should first let the oven run for 15 minutes before placing the second food into the oven.<ref>Chacham Ovadia Yosef quoted by Rabbi Mansour at dailyhalacha.com. [http://www.dailyhalacha.com/displayRead.asp?readID=491] </ref> | ||
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===Dishwashers=== | ===Dishwashers=== | ||
# According to Ashkenazim, some say that it is forbidden to use a dishwasher for meat and milk even one after the other and even if one uses different racks. <Ref>Badei Hashulchan 95:81. | # According to Ashkenazim, some say that it is forbidden to use a dishwasher for meat and milk even one after the other and even if one uses different racks. <Ref>Badei Hashulchan 95:81. | ||
* Rav Moshe Feinstein (Igrot Moshe OC 1:104, OC 3:58, YD 1:28-29, and YD 3:10-11) is lenient to use a dishwasher for meat and milk dishes consecutively with different racks. His reasoning is that the only concern of taste from the dirty dishes is Nat Bar Nat and therefore doesn't render the dishwasher meat or milk. He explains that it is permitted even initially and isn't considered like creating Nat Bar Nat. Also, he says that there is probably sixty times the beeyn in the actual pieces of leftovers on the plate. Yet, he says that a person should use different racks for meat and milk out of a concern that a piece of meat or milk got stuck onto the rack and taste directly got absorbed into the racks.</ref> Sephardim only allow using one dishwasher for meat and milk if they are used in different shifts and the dishes are first rinsed to remove the large pieces.<ref>Yalkut Yosef (Otzar Dinim L'isha p. 618), Yalkut Yosef (Isur Vheter v. 3 p. 485) | * Rav Moshe Feinstein (Igrot Moshe OC 1:104, OC 3:58, YD 1:28-29, and YD 3:10-11) is lenient to use a dishwasher for meat and milk dishes consecutively with different racks. His reasoning is that the only concern of taste from the dirty dishes is Nat Bar Nat and therefore doesn't render the dishwasher meat or milk. He explains that it is permitted even initially and isn't considered like creating Nat Bar Nat. Also, he says that there is probably sixty times the beeyn in the actual pieces of leftovers on the plate. Yet, he says that a person should use different racks for meat and milk out of a concern that a piece of meat or milk got stuck onto the rack and taste directly got absorbed into the racks.</ref> Sephardim only allow using one dishwasher for meat and milk if they are used in different shifts and the dishes are first rinsed to remove the large pieces.<ref>Yalkut Yosef (Otzar Dinim L'isha p. 618), Yalkut Yosef (Isur Vheter v. 3 p. 485) only allows consecutive cycles. Yabia Omer YD 10:4 allows meat and milk dishes together. Rav Ovadia himself in the new edition of Yabia Omer 10:4 fnt. 6 added that it is better not to follow his teshuva to do it at the same time. Rabbi Assayag and Rabbi Wiesenfeld in Kashrut in the Kitchen Q&A p. 91 rule like Yalkut Yosef. | ||
* Shaarei Shalom on Piskei Ben Ish Chai Basar Bchalav p. 143-5 is strict for all dishwashers even one after another. If the first cycle is with soap he is concerned for the fact that noten taam lifgam is only after the fact. He quotes Tzemech Tzedek 61, Minchat Yakov 57:26, and Shulchan Gavoha 95:7 who only allow the case of using ashes to clean dishes (S"A 95:4) after the fact. Also, if the first cycle is without soap there is an issue because if the dishes are dirty everything becomes forbidden and if they're clean we don't rely on S"A 95:3 initially as Shach points out. | * Shaarei Shalom on Piskei Ben Ish Chai Basar Bchalav p. 143-5 is strict for all dishwashers even one after another. If the first cycle is with soap he is concerned for the fact that noten taam lifgam is only after the fact. He quotes Tzemech Tzedek 61, Minchat Yakov 57:26, and Shulchan Gavoha 95:7 who only allow the case of using ashes to clean dishes (S"A 95:4) after the fact. Also, if the first cycle is without soap there is an issue because if the dishes are dirty everything becomes forbidden and if they're clean we don't rely on S"A 95:3 initially as Shach points out. | ||
* Horah Brurah 95:46 discusses whether the kula of 95:4 is permitted initially but concludes like Rav Ovadia that it is permitted even initially. | * Horah Brurah 95:46 discusses whether the kula of 95:4 is permitted initially but concludes like Rav Ovadia that it is permitted even initially. | ||
Magen Ba’adi 1:19 of Rabbi Matloud Abadie writes the exact same argument as Rav Ovadia. Or Letzion 3:10:11 in footnote implies the same position. | |||
* Whether the beliyot can be koshered with ashes in the water is a major dispute: Kaf Hachaim 95:59 quotes the Bet Dovid YD 41 quoting Mahariku and Bet Yehuda 114c, 2:77 hold that it is effective, while the Dvar Moshe 10, Dvar Shmuel 88, Kol Eliyahu YD 1:11, and Erech Hashulchan 95:17 hold that it isn't effective.</ref> | * Whether the beliyot can be koshered with ashes in the water is a major dispute: Kaf Hachaim 95:59 quotes the Bet Dovid YD 41 quoting Mahariku and Bet Yehuda 114c, 2:77 hold that it is effective, while the Dvar Moshe 10, Dvar Shmuel 88, Kol Eliyahu YD 1:11, and Erech Hashulchan 95:17 hold that it isn't effective.</ref> | ||
# If there is porcelain in the walls of a dishwasher it can't be koshered. If it is metal then it can be koshered but not the plastic parts.<ref>Igrot Moshe OC 3:58, [https://www.star-k.org/articles/articles/kosher-appliances/2939/kashering-dishwashers/ Star-K]</ref> There is a dispute if the hard plastic racks can be koshered.<ref>https://www.yeshiva.co/ask/?id=8668</ref> | # If there is porcelain in the walls of a dishwasher it can't be koshered. If it is metal then it can be koshered but not the plastic parts.<ref>Igrot Moshe OC 3:58, [https://www.star-k.org/articles/articles/kosher-appliances/2939/kashering-dishwashers/ Star-K]</ref> There is a dispute if the hard plastic racks can be koshered.<ref>https://www.yeshiva.co/ask/?id=8668</ref> | ||
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# Noten taam lifgam applies to all prohibitions including combinations of milk and meat.<ref>Kaf HaChaim 103:3, Chavot Daat (Biurim 103:1) unlike the Peleti 87:15</ref> | # Noten taam lifgam applies to all prohibitions including combinations of milk and meat.<ref>Kaf HaChaim 103:3, Chavot Daat (Biurim 103:1) unlike the Peleti 87:15</ref> | ||
==Sharp Foods== | ==Sharp Foods== | ||
# If an onion or another sharp food is cut with a meat or milk knife or is cooked in a meat or milk pot see the [[Sharp | # If an onion or another sharp food is cut with a meat or milk knife or is cooked in a meat or milk pot see the [[Sharp Foods]] page. | ||
==Sources== | ==Sources== | ||
<references/> | <references/> | ||
[[Category:Kashrut]] | [[Category:Kashrut]] | ||
