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Milk and Meat in the Kitchen: Difference between revisions
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# The Torah only refers to a "גדי"; however, our Sages have taught us that a "kid" refers to all kosher domesticated animals (e.g. sheep, cows). We were also taught that all types of kosher animal milk are prohibited to cook meat with, not only the milk of the mother. Rather, the reason why the Torah was so specific is because it was speaking in the present (i.e. that the verse spoke in terms which are similar to the way the world functioned at the time).<ref>Shulchan Aruch Y"D 87:2. Maimonides in Guide to the Perplexed 3:48 even suggests that the practice of [[cooking]] a kid in its mother's milk may have been an idolatrous one.</ref> | # The Torah only refers to a "גדי"; however, our Sages have taught us that a "kid" refers to all kosher domesticated animals (e.g. sheep, cows). We were also taught that all types of kosher animal milk are prohibited to cook meat with, not only the milk of the mother. Rather, the reason why the Torah was so specific is because it was speaking in the present (i.e. that the verse spoke in terms which are similar to the way the world functioned at the time).<ref>Shulchan Aruch Y"D 87:2. Maimonides in Guide to the Perplexed 3:48 even suggests that the practice of [[cooking]] a kid in its mother's milk may have been an idolatrous one.</ref> | ||
== | ==Kashrut of Ovens for Meat and Milk== | ||
# | # To avoid all issues one should choose the primary use of the oven for meat or milk and then cover the other type. For example, if he chooses that it be used as a meat oven, the meat foods can be cooked in there uncovered. The dairy dishes with liquid should be covered, however, the dry dairy dishes can be cooked uncovered. Also, if within 24 hours of cooking a meat dish with liquid one wants to cook a diary dish with liquid one should wait until after 24 hours even if it is covered.<ref>The Badei Hashulchan 92:183 presents this set of laws to prevent any prohibition. However, in cases of mistakes one should ask his rabbi. The following is a summary of halachic discussion on this topic: | ||
# According to some, if the foods are dry foods that don't produce vapors, then one may place the foods in the oven one after the other (but not at the same time).<ref>Rav Moshe Feinstein in Iggerot Moshe Y"D 1:40. </ref> Others rule that | * Mishna Machshirin 2:2 says that steam is considered liquid to cause a fruit that came in contact with steam is considered susceptible to impurity since it came in contact with liquid. The Rosh (responsa 20:26) infers from this mishna that steam has the same status as the actual food where it came from. Therefore, he writes that if there’s a milk pot cooking below a meat pot the meat pot is forbidden because the steam is considered like hot milk. The Trumat Hadeshen (responsa 103) agrees but stipulates that it is only an issue if the steam reached the temperature of yad soledet bo. Therefore, it is permitted to cook a pot of milk food beneath hanging meat, such as salami, if the meat is far away and the steam won’t be yad soledet bo once it reaches the meat. Shulchan Aruch 92:8 codifies the opinion of the Rosh, while the Rama quotes the Trumat Hadeshen. | ||
* Because of a concern of steam coming from an uncovered pot of food in an oven, some poskim forbid using one oven for meat and milk even not at the same time. Rav Moshe Feinstein in Igrot Moshe 1:40 writes that there is an issue. See what he writes regarding after the fact. He rejects 3 concerns that could be used to argue that it is permitted. | |||
* (1) Perhaps since the oven is large the steam doesn’t get absorbed into the walls just like the Trumat Hadeshen said that steam that’s less than yad soledet bo isn’t absorbed. Rav Moshe argues that even if the steam weren’t yad soledet bo nonetheless they would be absorbed into the ceiling of the oven since it is very hot and heats up the steam upon touch. | |||
* (2) Rav Moshe holds that a vent in the walls doesn’t allow all of the steam to exit. | |||
* (3) Lastly, Rav Moshe doesn’t think that the steam was burned up before it was absorbed into the walls since we only can be sure that a drop of liquid is burnt up right near the fire (see Shulchan Aruch 92:6). | |||
* Rav Ben Tzion Wosner (Or Yisrael 5763 year 8 no. 4:34 pp. 92-102), son of Rav Shmuel Wosner, writes that ovens aren’t an issue of steam because since the walls are so hot they burn up the steam before it is absorbed. This concept can be found in the Maharsham 3:208 though that isn’t his conclusion. Yavetz (1:93) is lenient and is adamant about this issue. | |||
* Minchat Yitzchak 5:20 and Chelkat Yakov 2:136 are strict. | |||
* Concerning dry dishes the Pri Megadim (seder v’hanahagot hashoel im hanishal b’isur v’heter seder 2 no. 37) says that zeiya is only an issur from liquids and not dry foods. Rav Moshe YD 1:40 says that there is an issue of steam from dry foods if you can see it, otherwise you don’t need to assume that there is steam from dry dishes.</ref> | |||
# According to Sephardim, many Poskim rule that nowadays a person should have separate ovens for [[cooking]] meat and for [[cooking]] milk.<ref> Rabbi Mansour says this lechatchila at dailyhalacha.com. [http://www.dailyhalacha.com/displayRead.asp?readID=491] This is also the opinion of R' Shmuel Pinchasi quoted at dailyhalacha.com. [http://www.dailyhalacha.com/displayRead.asp?readID=645] </ref> In cases where this is difficult, one can be lenient to use one oven so long as one covers all food placed in the oven or if one cooks the different uncovered foods in the oven over 24 hours apart.<ref>Rav Moshe Feinstein in Iggerot Moshe Y"D 1:40. Chacham Ovadia Yosef quoted by Rabbi Mansour [http://www.dailyhalacha.com/displayRead.asp?readID=491&txtSearch=separate%20ovens] writes that bedieved if one didn't wait 24 hours before cooking the opposite type of food, the food would nevertheless be permissible. However, R' Ovadia states that ideally one should wait 24 hours between cooking the two foods and that one should first let the oven run for 15 minutes before placing the second food into the oven. </ref> | |||
## According to some, if the foods are dry foods that don't produce vapors, then one may place the foods in the oven one after the other (but not at the same time).<ref>Rav Moshe Feinstein in Iggerot Moshe Y"D 1:40. </ref> Others rule that one should wait 24 hours between cooking the foods and that one should first let the oven run for 15 minutes before placing the second food into the oven.<ref>Chacham Ovadia Yosef quoted by Rabbi Mansour at dailyhalacha.com. [http://www.dailyhalacha.com/displayRead.asp?readID=491] </ref> | |||
# In a case where someone has only one oven, he does not need to have separate oven grates for meat and milk.<ref>Rav Moshe Feinstein in Iggerot Moshe Y"D 1:40. </ref> | # In a case where someone has only one oven, he does not need to have separate oven grates for meat and milk.<ref>Rav Moshe Feinstein in Iggerot Moshe Y"D 1:40. </ref> | ||
== | ==Stovetops== | ||
# Some poskim suggest being strict to use separate grates for stovetops that are designated for meat or dairy, however, many other poskim aren’t concerned and permit using the same grates.<ref>Igrot Moshe YD 1:40 was asked about using meat and dairy grates initially and he responded that it is permitted. He writes that we don’t need to be concerned since there’s no chance of taste going from your pot into the grate based on Rama 92:8 and Shach 105:22. Igrot Moshe YD 3:10 reiterates that his opinion isn’t in opposition to the Rama’s insistence on initially avoiding this concern. Badei Hashulchan 92:183 disagrees and advises using different stovetop grates for meat and milk so that there’s no transference of taste from pot to pot. [Rabbi Baruch Simon (yutorah.org Yoreh Deah Shiur 34 - Melicha K’rote’ach)] explains this dispute and added that the minhag is like Rav Moshe. </ref> | |||
==Transference of Taste== | |||
# If a hot meat pot touches a hot dairy pot and there’s no liquid in between the pots the two pots are still kosher because taste doesn’t transfer between pots without liquid.<ref> Mordechai (chullin no. 690) says that two pots can’t transfer taste without liquid. Rama 92:8 and 93 rules like the Mordechai. Shach 105:22 agrees.</ref> | |||
# If a hot piece of meat touches a hot piece of dairy and there’s no liquid between the pieces and neither piece is fatty only a finger-width of each piece surrounding where they touched is made non-kosher. Ashkenazim are strict to forbidden the entire piece of meat and dairy.<ref> | |||
* Generally, Shulchan Aruch 105:4 rules that roasting, dry heat, only causes a transfer of taste up to a fingerwidth. The Rama 105:9 writes that since today we’re not experts in determining what is considered fatty and what isn’t we always consider it like it is fatty and there is a transfer of taste completely throughout the food. | |||
* Nonetheless, the Rashba (Torat HaBayit HaKatzar 10a) limits this concept of tastes being transferred during roasting to when the food is intrinsically forbidden. The Tosfot (Chullin 96b s.v. afilu) and Rosh (Chullin 8:24) also subscribe to this concept. Tur and Shulchan Aruch 105:7 codify this idea but adds that meat and milk is considered an example of something that is intrinsically forbidden. The Maharshal (Chullin 8:45) and Taz 105:13 argue with the Shulchan Aruch on the grounds that meat which absorbed a milk taste is still considered something with a forbidden taste and not intrinsically forbidden. Nonetheless, they agree that if a hot piece of meat touches a hot piece of dairy that there would be a transfer of taste into the meat and dairy pieces and it isn’t considered like absorbed tastes. </ref> | |||
# If a hot piece of fatty meat touches a hot piece of dairy and there’s no liquid between the pieces the entire piece is forbidden since the fat spreads taste.<ref>Shulchan Aruch 105:5 writes that if a piece of meat is fatty it can transfer taste into a kosher piece of meat completely without without any liquid since fat spreads taste. Also, according to Shulchan Aruch 105:7 meat and milk combining is considered like something intrinsically forbidden.</ref> | |||
# A piece of meat which absorbed a dairy taste is considered completely forbidden. Therefore, if it is hot and touches a piece of kosher food it will cause that other food to become non-kosher up to the depth of a finger-width.<ref>Tur and Shulchan Aruch 105:7 codify this idea but adds that meat and milk is considered an example of something that is intrinsically forbidden. The Maharshal (Chullin 8:45) and Taz 105:13 argue with the Shulchan Aruch on the grounds that meat which absorbed a milk taste is still considered something with a forbidden taste and not intrinsically forbidden. However, the Shach 105:17 defends Shulchan Aruch based on the Ran (Chullin 43a s.v. tenan) and concludes that one should be strict to assume that meat which absorbed milk taste is considered intrinsically forbidden and can forbid something else by its touch. Nonetheless, the Shach says that in this case Ashkenazim do not have to be strict to consider all foods to be fatty whether or not they are since anyway it isn’t clear that meat with milk taste is considered intrinsically forbidden. </ref> | |||
==Microwave for Meat and Milk== | |||
# If one uses a microwave for meat and for dairy (at different times), some authorities hold that one should preferably double wrap all foods<ref> [http://www.oukosher.org/index.php/common/article/is_your_oven_kosher_what_every_kosher_cook_must_know/ The OU] quotes Rav Yisrael Belsky who says that preferably one should double wrap food put in a microwave if it's used for meat and dairy (at different times). </ref>, however, some authorities hold that covering it well with one covering is sufficient. Some also advise using different trays one for dairy and one for meat. <ref>Yalkut Yosef (Isser Veheter, vol 3, pg 167) rules that if the microwave works only on radiation (without a heater) one should make sure to cover all food very well and then it would be permissible to use it for meat and dairy one after another. This is also the opinion of [http://www.dailyhalacha.com/Display.asp?ClipDate=8/9/2004 Rabbi Mansour] at Dailyhalacha.com. [http://www.bknw.org/pafiledb/uploads/Kashrus%20of%20a%20Microwave%20-%20new.pdf Rabbi Aryeh Lebowitz] writes that one covering should suffice to inhibit the splattering of food and steam from being released. He also mentions the point about using separate microwave trays. </ref> | # If one uses a microwave for meat and for dairy (at different times), some authorities hold that one should preferably double wrap all foods<ref> [http://www.oukosher.org/index.php/common/article/is_your_oven_kosher_what_every_kosher_cook_must_know/ The OU] quotes Rav Yisrael Belsky who says that preferably one should double wrap food put in a microwave if it's used for meat and dairy (at different times). </ref>, however, some authorities hold that covering it well with one covering is sufficient. Some also advise using different trays one for dairy and one for meat. <ref>Yalkut Yosef (Isser Veheter, vol 3, pg 167) rules that if the microwave works only on radiation (without a heater) one should make sure to cover all food very well and then it would be permissible to use it for meat and dairy one after another. This is also the opinion of [http://www.dailyhalacha.com/Display.asp?ClipDate=8/9/2004 Rabbi Mansour] at Dailyhalacha.com. [http://www.bknw.org/pafiledb/uploads/Kashrus%20of%20a%20Microwave%20-%20new.pdf Rabbi Aryeh Lebowitz] writes that one covering should suffice to inhibit the splattering of food and steam from being released. He also mentions the point about using separate microwave trays. </ref> | ||
# If one wan't careful to keep his microwave kosher in these regards, one can make it kosher again by cleaning the microwave out and boiling water in the microwave for a few minutes. Some also recommend adding detergent to the water that is to be boiled in the microwave.<ref>Rabbi Mansour in the name of R' Shmuel Pinchasi at dailyhalacha.com. [http://www.dailyhalacha.com/displayRead.asp?readID=645 | # If one wan't careful to keep his microwave kosher in these regards, one can make it kosher again by cleaning the microwave out and boiling water in the microwave for a few minutes. Some also recommend adding detergent to the water that is to be boiled in the microwave.<ref>Rabbi Mansour in the name of R' Shmuel Pinchasi at dailyhalacha.com. [http://www.dailyhalacha.com/displayRead.asp?readID=645] </ref> | ||
==Toaster- | ==Toaster-Oven for Meat and Milk== | ||
# One should preferably designate his or her toaster-oven specifically for meat or for dairy, since it is small and hard to clean out. The concern is that small particles remain behind in the toaster-oven and would then make it impossible to separate between meat and dairy foods.<ref>Rabbi Mansour in the name of R' Shmuel Pinchasi at dailyhalacha.com. [http://www.dailyhalacha.com/displayRead.asp?readID=645 | # One should preferably designate his or her toaster-oven specifically for meat or for dairy, since it is small and hard to clean out. The concern is that small particles remain behind in the toaster-oven and would then make it impossible to separate between meat and dairy foods.<ref>Rabbi Mansour in the name of R' Shmuel Pinchasi at dailyhalacha.com. [http://www.dailyhalacha.com/displayRead.asp?readID=645] </ref> | ||
==Washing Meat and Milk Dishes in One Sink== | ==Washing Meat and Milk Dishes in One Sink== | ||
