Bots, Bureaucrats, Interface administrators, Suppressors, Administrators, wiki-admin, wiki-controller, wiki-editor, wiki-reader
1,220
edits
Mikvaot: Difference between revisions
From Halachipedia
→Hashaka between Shuevim or Mey Geshamim and a Mayan
Tags: Mobile edit Mobile web edit |
|||
| Line 259: | Line 259: | ||
===Hashaka between Shuevim or Mey Geshamim and a Mayan=== | ===Hashaka between Shuevim or Mey Geshamim and a Mayan=== | ||
# The Mishna<ref>Mikvaot 1:7</ref> clearly states that a mayan which has a majority of sheuvim water is treated like a mikveh that it can only purify while standing still (eshborin). The Raah<ref>Ritva (Nedarim 13a) quotes the Raah</ref> is bothered why this is the case if hashaka works to purify sheuvim water to become non-sheuvim in a mikveh. He answers that in fact hashaka is relevant to convert sheuvim water into mayan water to purify even will moving (zochlin). He explains that the Mishna means that in the place where the mayan flowed originally it is still a mayan, but in the places where it expanded or went further than before the sheuvim was added it is treated as a mikveh. However, the rest of the rishonim firmly disagree with this view and do not accept hashaka of sheuvim with a mayan.<ref>Tosfot Bechorot 55b s.v. ein and Ritva (Nedarim 13a) quoting Ramban, Raavad, and Rav Pinchas Halevi, brother of Raah, all hold that hashaka of sheuvim and a mayan does not make the sheuvim into mayan water. Their explanation is based on Nedarim 40b and Mikvaot 1:7 which indicates that once there is a majority of sheuvim or rain water | # The Mishna<ref>Mikvaot 1:7</ref> clearly states that a mayan which has a majority of sheuvim water is treated like a mikveh that it can only purify while standing still (eshborin). The Raah<ref>Ritva (Nedarim 13a) quotes the Raah</ref> is bothered why this is the case if hashaka works to purify sheuvim water to become non-sheuvim in a mikveh. He answers that in fact hashaka is relevant to convert sheuvim water into mayan water to purify even will moving (zochlin). He explains that the Mishna means that in the place where the mayan flowed originally it is still a mayan, but in the places where it expanded or went further than before the sheuvim was added it is treated as a mikveh. However, the rest of the rishonim firmly disagree with this view and do not accept hashaka of sheuvim with a mayan.<ref>Tosfot Bechorot 55b s.v. ein and Ritva (Nedarim 13a) quoting Ramban, Raavad, and Rav Pinchas Halevi, brother of Raah, all hold that hashaka of sheuvim and a mayan does not make the sheuvim into mayan water. Their explanation is based on Nedarim 40b and Mikvaot 1:7 which indicates that once there is a majority of sheuvim or rain water in a mayan, it is no longer considered a mayan to purify with zochlin. The evidence for Raah, who holds that hashaka makes rainwater into a mayan, is from Mikvoat 5:3 which implies that a flowing mayan which is expanded with sheuvim is still a considered a mayan. | ||
* Ramban answers that Mikvaot 5:3 is discussing where the sheuvim is added directly into the mayan. That effectively converts the sheuvim into mayan water, but if the sheuvim or rain water is added anywhere else downstream hashaka is ineffective and it is not considered mayan water. | |||
* Rabbi Pinchas answers that a majority of mayan water can nullify the sheuvim or rain water to become like mayan water. Nonetheless, on a rabbinic level they disallowed using a mayan with a minority of rain water in the places where it expanded or continued further than where it flowed previously because of a concern that it appears that tevila is acceptable in zochlin of mikveh water. That's the explanation in Mikvaot 5:3 which is discussing where there isn't a majority of mayan water. However, Mikvaot 1:7 and Nedarim 40b are discussing where there is a majority of rain water in which case hashaka doesn't help to make it into mayan water. | |||
* Mikvaot 5:2 according to Kesef Mishna (Hilchot Mikvaot 9:6) considers rainwater that was connected to a mayan to be like a mayan. Several explanations are given for this cited by Moreshet Moshe 5:2: Taz 201:3 holds like Raah that essentially hashaka converts rainwater to become a mayan, but here there is a gezera that the rainwater won't be connected properly (katafras). Similarly, Lechem Vsimla 201:1 s.v. vnireh answers that there's marit ayin to use this rainwater since it appears like he's using rainwater that's moving. However, Gidulei Tahara 13 and Aruch Hashulchan 201:52 explain that if there is majority of rainwater in the entire river then it is no longer a mayan and hashaka doesn't work to make it into a mayan, but if there's a majority of rainwater in one spot and that is conencted to an uncontaminated mayan hashaka converts it into a mayan. </ref> | |||
#Several explanations are provided why hashaka doesn't work here: | #Several explanations are provided why hashaka doesn't work here: | ||
## Ritva<Ref>Nedarim 13b</ref> explains that hashaka with sheuvim only works since sheuvim is really rabbinic even if there's a majority of sheuvim the mikveh is still kosher from the Torah. Since it is rabbinic the rabbis allowed added a lot of sheuvim to a complete mikveh even if the result will be that there is more sheuvim than mikveh water. However, zochlin is a Torah invalidation of mikveh water and so it can't be fixed with hashaka. | ## Ritva<Ref>Nedarim 13b</ref> explains that hashaka with sheuvim only works since sheuvim is really rabbinic even if there's a majority of sheuvim the mikveh is still kosher from the Torah. Since it is rabbinic the rabbis allowed added a lot of sheuvim to a complete mikveh even if the result will be that there is more sheuvim than mikveh water. However, zochlin is a Torah invalidation of mikveh water and so it can't be fixed with hashaka. | ||
## Trumat Hadeshen<Ref>Trumat Hadeshen 254</ref> writes that the reason hashaka works for sheuvim is because sheuvim is only invalid since it is detached from the ground. Hashaka reattaches to a mikveh and makes it like it is touching the ground. However, zochlin is a different invalidation that the Torah stated and for that hashaka doesn't help. | ## Trumat Hadeshen<Ref>Trumat Hadeshen 254</ref> writes that the reason hashaka works for sheuvim is because sheuvim is only invalid since it is detached from the ground. Hashaka reattaches to a mikveh and makes it like it is touching the ground. However, zochlin is a different invalidation that the Torah stated and for that hashaka doesn't help. | ||
# There is no distinction between sheuvim water and rain water for this discussion of hashaka with a mayan.<ref>Trumat Hadeshen 254</ref> | # There is no distinction between sheuvim water and rain water for this discussion of hashaka with a mayan.<ref>Trumat Hadeshen 254</ref> | ||
# Does bitul of rov help to purify sheuvim water in a mayan? Several rishonim hold that bitul is helpful to allow sheuvim water or rain water in a mayan to become acceptable like mayan water.<ref>Rabbenu Tam and Tosfot Bechorot 55b s.v. ein, Rabbi Pinchas Halevi | # Does bitul of rov help to purify sheuvim water in a mayan? Several rishonim hold that bitul is helpful to allow sheuvim water or rain water in a mayan to become acceptable like mayan water.<ref>Rabbenu Tam and Tosfot Bechorot 55b s.v. ein, Rabbi Pinchas Halevi (brother of Raah, cited by Ritva Nedarim 13a), Shach 201:32</ref> Within these rishonim they argue whether it is possible to have kama kama batel, consecutive bitul of a little bit at a time. Some rishonim hold that it is batel a little at a time<ref>Rabbenu Tam cited in Tosfot Bechorot 55b s.v. ein</ref> and others hold it isn't.<ref>Ritva Nedarim 13b holds that kama kama batel is irrelevant to rain or a growth of kilayim since it is natural for it to continue. It is different than someone pouring which he could decide to stop at any moment. See also Ramban Bava Batra 2a for the same type of idea.</ref> | ||
===Hashaka with Mikveh that doesn’t have 40 seah=== | ===Hashaka with Mikveh that doesn’t have 40 seah=== | ||
