Materials to use for S'chach: Difference between revisions
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→Schach Held Up by Unfit Items
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#There is a dispute among the poskim whether maamid applies to anything which is invalid for schach but isn't mekabel tumah, such as plastic that doesn't grow from the ground but isn't mekabel tumah. Many are strict to consider it maamid, but some are lenient.<ref>[https://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=1133&pgnum=138 Maharil Diskin 56] is lenient about this since Shulchan Aruch only mentions maamid regarding items are mekabel tumah and doesn't mention it for any other invalid schach. Rav Henkin (Gevurat Eliyahu siman 164, p. 301) is lenient on things that don't grow from the ground and aren't mekabel tumah. In fnt. 1185 he writes that Rav Moshe Feinstein agreed with Rav Henkin about this. [https://www.star-k.org/articles/articles/seasonal/431/guide-to-star-k-certified-schach/ Rav Moshe Heinemann (and Star-K)] is also lenient. However, Bet Hasho'eyva (Makom Hareuy Lsukkah n. 16) is strict about maamid with something that doesn't grow from the ground even though it isn't mekabel tumah. Kaf Hachaim 627:40 quotes this and Ginat Veradim who seems to be lenient on this. Additionally, Rav Shlomo Miller (Shoshat Yisrael p. 16) is strict about bamboo mats made with plastic threads because plastic doesn't grow from the ground. Rivevot Efraim 8:242:2 and Rav Schachter (“Inyonei Sukkos” on Yutorah.org min 60-4) are strict. Halichot Shlomo p. 128 fnt. 14 quotes that Rav Shlomo Zalman thought the Maharil Diskin's leniency is strange since it is against the Ran and Magen Avraham but the Meiri does say it. Chazon Ovadia p. 47 quotes this whole discussion and notes that the Itur and Meiri 22 are lenient about maamid with something that doesn't grow from the ground but also wonders why the Maharil Diskin was lenient since the Ran and most other rishonim were strict about this. </ref> | #There is a dispute among the poskim whether maamid applies to anything which is invalid for schach but isn't mekabel tumah, such as plastic that doesn't grow from the ground but isn't mekabel tumah. Many are strict to consider it maamid, but some are lenient.<ref>[https://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=1133&pgnum=138 Maharil Diskin 56] is lenient about this since Shulchan Aruch only mentions maamid regarding items are mekabel tumah and doesn't mention it for any other invalid schach. Rav Henkin (Gevurat Eliyahu siman 164, p. 301) is lenient on things that don't grow from the ground and aren't mekabel tumah. In fnt. 1185 he writes that Rav Moshe Feinstein agreed with Rav Henkin about this. [https://www.star-k.org/articles/articles/seasonal/431/guide-to-star-k-certified-schach/ Rav Moshe Heinemann (and Star-K)] is also lenient. However, Bet Hasho'eyva (Makom Hareuy Lsukkah n. 16) is strict about maamid with something that doesn't grow from the ground even though it isn't mekabel tumah. Kaf Hachaim 627:40 quotes this and Ginat Veradim who seems to be lenient on this. Additionally, Rav Shlomo Miller (Shoshat Yisrael p. 16) is strict about bamboo mats made with plastic threads because plastic doesn't grow from the ground. Rivevot Efraim 8:242:2 and Rav Schachter (“Inyonei Sukkos” on Yutorah.org min 60-4) are strict. Halichot Shlomo p. 128 fnt. 14 quotes that Rav Shlomo Zalman thought the Maharil Diskin's leniency is strange since it is against the Ran and Magen Avraham but the Meiri does say it. Chazon Ovadia p. 47 quotes this whole discussion and notes that the Itur and Meiri 22 are lenient about maamid with something that doesn't grow from the ground but also wonders why the Maharil Diskin was lenient since the Ran and most other rishonim were strict about this. </ref> | ||
# One should ideally avoid [[tying]] the [[schach]] down with a material that would not serve as kosher [[schach]] if the [[schach]] would be unable to withstand regular wind independently.<ref> Be’tzel Ha’Chochma 5:44</ref> However, many poskim permit in all circumstances to tie down [[schach]] with material that is only invalid as [[schach]] mi’derabanan, such as natural twine.<ref>Rav Vosner cited in the Beit Levi Cheilek 4, pg. 23, Chazon Ovadia p. 30, Or Letzion 4:24:9, and [https://www.yutorah.org/sidebar/lecture.cfm/972040/rabbi-hershel-schachter/inyonei-succos-5781/ Rav Schachter]. Rav Ovadia Yosef (Chazon Ovadia p. 24-5) writes that it is permitted to use a material that is only rabbinically invalid in order to hold up the [[schach]] since the entire issue of maamid is only a gezerah, so the rabbis would never have instituted a gezerah l’gezerah. This is based on the opinion of the Ritva ([[Sukkah]] 11b). Rav Schachter (“Inyonei Sukkah”, min 44-6, 62-4) agreed, though he questioned it because this seems to fall into the category of a double d'rabbanan and not a gezerah l’gezerah. This is reiterated in [https://www.yutorah.org/sidebar/lecture.cfm/972040/rabbi-hershel-schachter/inyonei-succos-5781/ another shiur ("Inyonei Succos 5781" min 22-28)].</ref> | # One should ideally avoid [[tying]] the [[schach]] down with a material that would not serve as kosher [[schach]] if the [[schach]] would be unable to withstand regular wind independently.<ref> Be’tzel Ha’Chochma 5:44</ref> However, many poskim permit in all circumstances to tie down [[schach]] with material that is only invalid as [[schach]] mi’derabanan, such as natural twine.<ref>Rav Vosner cited in the Beit Levi Cheilek 4, pg. 23, Chazon Ovadia p. 30, Or Letzion 4:24:9, and [https://www.yutorah.org/sidebar/lecture.cfm/972040/rabbi-hershel-schachter/inyonei-succos-5781/ Rav Schachter]. Rav Ovadia Yosef (Chazon Ovadia p. 24-5) writes that it is permitted to use a material that is only rabbinically invalid in order to hold up the [[schach]] since the entire issue of maamid is only a gezerah, so the rabbis would never have instituted a gezerah l’gezerah. This is based on the opinion of the Ritva ([[Sukkah]] 11b). Rav Schachter (“Inyonei Sukkah”, min 44-6, 62-4) agreed, though he questioned it because this seems to fall into the category of a double d'rabbanan and not a gezerah l’gezerah. This is reiterated in [https://www.yutorah.org/sidebar/lecture.cfm/972040/rabbi-hershel-schachter/inyonei-succos-5781/ another shiur ("Inyonei Succos 5781" min 22-28)].</ref> | ||
#Using zip-ties to tie down the schach so that they don't blow away is a problem if otherwise the schach would blow away in a normal wind. After the fact, the sukkah is still acceptable, though it should be avoided. If the schach is secure enough that it'll stay for a normal wind then using the zip-ties is totally fine since it is only adding extra security to avoid uncommon winds.<ref>Rav Nissim Karelitz (Chut Shani p. 210) writes that a person should not tie down his schach with zip ties. But if his schach would have stayed in a normal anyway without the zip ties it is fine to use them because of an abnormal wind. [https://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/818822/rabbi-aryeh-lebowitz/ten-minute-halacha-holding-the-schach-down-with-zipties/ Rav Aryeh Lebowitz] explains that the only issue of zip ties is maamid since it enables the schach to be held in place and not blow away. The entire issue of maamid is rabbinic and initially an issue but not after the fact. If the schach would be able to withstand normal winds then you can add the zip ties to add security so it doesn't blow off in an uncommon wind (ruach sheino metzuya). [https://www.star-k.org/articles/articles/seasonal/431/guide-to-star-k-certified-schach/ Star-K] and [https://oukosher.org/blog/consumer-news/ou-kosher-experts-answer-sukkot-questons-sukkah-schach-eating-sukkah/ OU] come to the same conclusion in terms of it only being an issue if it is going to blow away in a normal wind.</ref> | #Using zip-ties to tie down the schach so that they don't blow away is a problem if otherwise the schach would blow away in a normal wind. After the fact, the sukkah is still acceptable, though it should be avoided. If the schach is secure enough that it'll stay for a normal wind then using the zip-ties is totally fine since it is only adding extra security to avoid uncommon winds.<ref>Rav Nissim Karelitz (Chut Shani p. 210) writes that a person should not tie down his schach with zip ties. But if his schach would have stayed in a normal anyway without the zip ties it is fine to use them because of an abnormal wind. Piskei Teshuvot 629:11 agrees and also quotes this from Avnei Yishfeh 1:120. [https://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/818822/rabbi-aryeh-lebowitz/ten-minute-halacha-holding-the-schach-down-with-zipties/ Rav Aryeh Lebowitz] explains that the only issue of zip ties is maamid since it enables the schach to be held in place and not blow away. The entire issue of maamid is rabbinic and initially an issue but not after the fact. If the schach would be able to withstand normal winds then you can add the zip ties to add security so it doesn't blow off in an uncommon wind (ruach sheino metzuya). [https://www.star-k.org/articles/articles/seasonal/431/guide-to-star-k-certified-schach/ Star-K] and [https://oukosher.org/blog/consumer-news/ou-kosher-experts-answer-sukkot-questons-sukkah-schach-eating-sukkah/ OU] come to the same conclusion in terms of it only being an issue if it is going to blow away in a normal wind.</ref> | ||
# One shouldn't use [[schach]] with a foul odor or whose leaves are falling off because there is a concern that the person may come to leave his [[sukkah]] because of the smell or the leaves falling on him.<ref> Rambam ([[Sukkah]] 5:1), Shulchan Aruch O.C. 629:14, Chazon Ovadia pg. 30, Magen Avraham 629:15, Kaf Hachaim 639:81 </ref> After the fact, it is valid.<ref>Rambam ([[Sukkah]] 5:1)</ref> | # One shouldn't use [[schach]] with a foul odor or whose leaves are falling off because there is a concern that the person may come to leave his [[sukkah]] because of the smell or the leaves falling on him.<ref> Rambam ([[Sukkah]] 5:1), Shulchan Aruch O.C. 629:14, Chazon Ovadia pg. 30, Magen Avraham 629:15, Kaf Hachaim 639:81 </ref> After the fact, it is valid.<ref>Rambam ([[Sukkah]] 5:1)</ref> | ||
#Some poskim hold that placing wooden beams on top of a metal frame and schach on top is considered indirect maamid (''maamid d'maamid'') and is kosher (Picture #1).<ref>Drishu 629:20 quoting Kaf Hachaim 626:42, Mikrei Kodesh 1:21 as well as Chut Shani p. 210 and Kehilat Yakov 18 in understanding the Magen Avraham. This is also evident in Chazon Ovadia p. 46 </ref> Others hold that it is only permitted if the wooden beams are significantly supporting the schach such that if they were removed the schach would fall (Picture #2).<ref>Drishu 629:20 quoting Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach (Minchat Shlomo 2:55 and Halichot Shlomo ch. 8 fnt. 37) and Rav Elyashiv (Ashrei Ish 3:25:25)</ref> | #Some poskim hold that placing wooden beams on top of a metal frame and schach on top is considered indirect maamid (''maamid d'maamid'') and is kosher (Picture #1).<ref>Drishu 629:20 quoting Kaf Hachaim 626:42, Mikrei Kodesh 1:21 as well as Chut Shani p. 210 and Kehilat Yakov 18 in understanding the Magen Avraham. This is also evident in Chazon Ovadia p. 46 </ref> Others hold that it is only permitted if the wooden beams are significantly supporting the schach such that if they were removed the schach would fall (Picture #2).<ref>Drishu 629:20 quoting Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach (Minchat Shlomo 2:55 and Halichot Shlomo ch. 8 fnt. 37) and Rav Elyashiv (Ashrei Ish 3:25:25)</ref> | ||
