Materials to use for S'chach: Difference between revisions
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Materials to use for S'chach (view source)
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* Chazon Ovadia (p. 23) writes that bamboo mats that are strung together with organic materials or cotton are valid [[schach]]. He reasons that it is similar to the case of the mat which is used only for [[schach]] and is recognizable for that purpose. Therefore, the mats aren’t susceptible to impurity. Also, it isn’t similar to a roof as there are spaces between the planks and can be folded up. Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach (Halichot Shlomo p. 128) and Rav Hershel Schachter (עניני יוה”כ וסוכות, min 78-79:30) agreed. | * Chazon Ovadia (p. 23) writes that bamboo mats that are strung together with organic materials or cotton are valid [[schach]]. He reasons that it is similar to the case of the mat which is used only for [[schach]] and is recognizable for that purpose. Therefore, the mats aren’t susceptible to impurity. Also, it isn’t similar to a roof as there are spaces between the planks and can be folded up. Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach (Halichot Shlomo p. 128) and Rav Hershel Schachter (עניני יוה”כ וסוכות, min 78-79:30) agreed. | ||
* Tzitz Eliezer 10:29 writes that one shouldn't use reed or straw mats for [[Schach]]. The reasoning is that the mats are sometimes used for sitting, sleeping, or containing items in which case they are impure. This would be a biblical invalidation. He adds that even if its designated to be used for [[schach]] there would be a rabbinic prohibition lest it be confused with those that are are unfit. Additionally, sometimes it is used as for roofing in which case they would be unfit as it looks like a real roof. </ref> | * Tzitz Eliezer 10:29 writes that one shouldn't use reed or straw mats for [[Schach]]. The reasoning is that the mats are sometimes used for sitting, sleeping, or containing items in which case they are impure. This would be a biblical invalidation. He adds that even if its designated to be used for [[schach]] there would be a rabbinic prohibition lest it be confused with those that are are unfit. Additionally, sometimes it is used as for roofing in which case they would be unfit as it looks like a real roof. </ref> | ||
# Regarding the use of hemp string to tie the bamboo for the [[schach]] together, most poskim are lenient. <ref> Regarding the hemp string used to tie the bamboos together, Rav Ovadia (Chazon Ovadia p. 30) writes that using string made from organic material for [[schach]] is only invalid rabbinically according to the Rambam if it is altered from its natural form (or according to the Raavad because it is useable for clothing). Since it is only a rabbinic issue, Rav Ovadia reasons that it is permitted to use it in order to hold up or hold together the [[schach]]. See the next footnote regarding maamid regarding items that are rabbinically invalid. Accordingly, Rav Schachter (“Inyonei [[Sukkos]]” on Yutorah.org min 60-4) permitted using hemp or cotton strings to hold together the bamboo mats. </ref> | # Regarding the use of hemp string to tie the bamboo for the [[schach]] together, most poskim are lenient.<ref> Regarding the hemp string used to tie the bamboos together, Rav Ovadia (Chazon Ovadia p. 30) writes that using string made from organic material for [[schach]] is only invalid rabbinically according to the Rambam if it is altered from its natural form (or according to the Raavad because it is useable for clothing). Since it is only a rabbinic issue, Rav Ovadia reasons that it is permitted to use it in order to hold up or hold together the [[schach]]. See the next footnote regarding maamid regarding items that are rabbinically invalid. Accordingly, Rav Schachter (“Inyonei [[Sukkos]]” on Yutorah.org min 60-4) permitted using hemp or cotton strings to hold together the bamboo mats. </ref> Some are concerned when the strings used to tie the mats are spun and others aren't.<Ref>Rashi Shabbat 64a s.v. yachol holds that any string that the fibers of which are spun by themselves are mekabel tumah. The Rambam (Sukkah 5:4, Kelim 22:1) disagrees and the Meiri 64a s.v. kilki explains the dispute in how to learn the gemara. The Shulchan Aruch (Bet Yosef 629:5) follows the Rambam as does the Mishna Brurah, but the Shaar Hatziyun 629:20 notes Rashi. Rav Moshe Feinstein (Igrot Moshe 1:177) in discussing venetian blinds also seems to be strict for Rashi. [https://www.star-k.org/articles/articles/seasonal/428/undercover-the-halachos-of-schach/ Rav Heinemann] is strict for Rashi. Rav Hershel Schachter is not concerned for Rashi since the Shulchan Aruch followed the Rambam.</ref> | ||
==Thickness of the Schach== | ==Thickness of the Schach== | ||
# The [[S'chach]] should be made so that there is a majority of shade and minority of sunlight that's let through the [[S'chach]]. If there's an equal amount of shade and sun in the actual [[S'chach]] it's unfit but if there's an equal amount of shade to light that shines on the floor of the [[Sukkah]] it's fit. <ref>Shulchan Aruch 631:1 and 4 </ref> | # The [[S'chach]] should be made so that there is a majority of shade and minority of sunlight that's let through the [[S'chach]]. If there's an equal amount of shade and sun in the actual [[S'chach]] it's unfit but if there's an equal amount of shade to light that shines on the floor of the [[Sukkah]] it's fit. <ref>Shulchan Aruch 631:1 and 4 </ref> | ||
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* Lastly, the Baal HaMeor ([[Sukkah]] 10a) holds like the rabbanan and we shouldn’t be concerned with either reason above. | * Lastly, the Baal HaMeor ([[Sukkah]] 10a) holds like the rabbanan and we shouldn’t be concerned with either reason above. | ||
* Even according to the first group of rishonim there are two limitations. The Ran writes that it is permitted to place [[schach]] on top of stone walls because no one uses stones for [[schach]] and no one will make a mistake to think that it is kosher. Additionally, the Ramban writes that placing [[schach]] on top of poles on top of a bed is permitted since the bed is acting as a ground for the [[sukkah]] and isn’t directly supporting the [[schach]]. | * Even according to the first group of rishonim there are two limitations. The Ran writes that it is permitted to place [[schach]] on top of stone walls because no one uses stones for [[schach]] and no one will make a mistake to think that it is kosher. Additionally, the Ramban writes that placing [[schach]] on top of poles on top of a bed is permitted since the bed is acting as a ground for the [[sukkah]] and isn’t directly supporting the [[schach]]. | ||
* What’s the halacha? Since Shulchan Aruch O.C. 630:13 holds like the Rosh, it would seem to be clear that is permitted to use items that are susceptible to tumah to hold up the [[schach]]. However, Shulchan Aruch O.C. 629:7 has a doubt whether it is permitted to place a ladder on top of [[schach]]. The Magen Avraham 629:9 suggests an explanation in which he forbids using a ladder that is susceptible to tumah lechatchila and would only permit it after the fact. Mishna Brurah 630:59 writes that it is permitted, but it is proper to be concerned for the opinions who are strict. </ref> According to most leading authorities, however, it's permissible to place [[S'chach]] on top of a material that's fit for [[S'chach]] which is in turn held up by something that's unfit for [[S'chach]]. Therefore, if one has a metal frame one should place wooden planks on the frame and then [[S'chach]] on top of it.<ref>Mishna Brurah 629:26, BeYitzchak Yikra (Rav Nevinsal) on that Mishna Brurah quoting Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach, Yabia Omer 10:46 and Chazon Ovadyah | * What’s the halacha? Since Shulchan Aruch O.C. 630:13 holds like the Rosh, it would seem to be clear that is permitted to use items that are susceptible to tumah to hold up the [[schach]]. However, Shulchan Aruch O.C. 629:7 has a doubt whether it is permitted to place a ladder on top of [[schach]]. The Magen Avraham 629:9 suggests an explanation in which he forbids using a ladder that is susceptible to tumah lechatchila and would only permit it after the fact. Mishna Brurah 630:59 writes that it is permitted, but it is proper to be concerned for the opinions who are strict. </ref> According to most leading authorities, however, it's permissible to place [[S'chach]] on top of a material that's fit for [[S'chach]] which is in turn held up by something that's unfit for [[S'chach]]. Therefore, if one has a metal frame one should place wooden planks on the frame and then [[S'chach]] on top of it.<ref>Mishna Brurah 629:26, BeYitzchak Yikra (Rav Nevinsal) on that Mishna Brurah quoting Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach, Rav Ovadia Yosef (Yabia Omer 10:46 and Chazon Ovadyah Sukkot pg 44), and Or Letzion 4:24:8 are lenient unlike the Chazon Ish 143:2-3. [http://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/764662/Rabbi_Hershel_Schachter/%D7%A2%D7%A0%D7%99%D7%99%D7%A0%D7%99_%D7%99%D7%95%D7%94%D7%9B'%D7%A4_%D7%95%D7%A1%D7%95%D7%9B%D7%95%D7%AA Rav Hershel Schachter] (62:30-66:15) also seems to be lenient. See Chelkat Yaakov 3:127, Minchat Shlomo 2:55, and Moadim U'zmanim 1:82. | ||
* The Magen Avraham 629:9 permits using metal nails to support the poles of the [[sukkah]] since they don’t directly support the [[schach]]. For example, the Bikkurei Yacov 629:15 writes that it is permitted to place [[schach]] on top of wooden poles on top of walls which are susceptible to impurity. The Chazon Ish (O.C. 143:2) argues since we can’t distinguish between different layers of [[schach]] and simply state the top layer of kosher [[schach]] is supported by another layer that is in turn supported by an item that is susceptible to tumah. Rav Schachter (“Inyonei [[Sukkah]]”, min 44-6, 62-4) noted that although the Chazon Ish’s argument is reasonable, the minhag follows the Magen Avraham and allows placing [[schach]] on top of planks on top of a metal frame.</ref> After the fact, if the [[schach]] was placed directly on metal, it is kosher.<ref> Mishna Brurah 629:22 and 630:58 </ref> | * The Magen Avraham 629:9 permits using metal nails to support the poles of the [[sukkah]] since they don’t directly support the [[schach]]. For example, the Bikkurei Yacov 629:15 writes that it is permitted to place [[schach]] on top of wooden poles on top of walls which are susceptible to impurity. The Chazon Ish (O.C. 143:2) argues since we can’t distinguish between different layers of [[schach]] and simply state the top layer of kosher [[schach]] is supported by another layer that is in turn supported by an item that is susceptible to tumah. Rav Schachter (“Inyonei [[Sukkah]]”, min 44-6, 62-4) noted that although the Chazon Ish’s argument is reasonable, the minhag follows the Magen Avraham and allows placing [[schach]] on top of planks on top of a metal frame.</ref> After the fact, if the [[schach]] was placed directly on metal, it is kosher.<ref> Mishna Brurah 629:22 and 630:58 </ref> | ||
# One should ideally avoid [[tying]] the [[schach]] down with a material that would not serve as kosher [[schach]] if the [[schach]] would be unable to withstand regular wind independently.<ref> Be’tzel Ha’Chochma 5:44</ref> However, many poskim | # One should ideally avoid [[tying]] the [[schach]] down with a material that would not serve as kosher [[schach]] if the [[schach]] would be unable to withstand regular wind independently.<ref> Be’tzel Ha’Chochma 5:44</ref> However, many poskim permit in all circumstances to tie down [[schach]] with material that is only invalid as [[schach]] mi’derabanan, such as natural twine.<ref>Rav Vosner cited in the Beit Levi Cheilek 4, pg. 23, Chazon Ovadia p. 30, Or Letzion 4:24:9, and [https://www.yutorah.org/sidebar/lecture.cfm/972040/rabbi-hershel-schachter/inyonei-succos-5781/ Rav Schachter]. Rav Ovadia Yosef (Chazon Ovadia p. 24-5) writes that it is permitted to use a material that is only rabbinically invalid in order to hold up the [[schach]] since the entire issue of maamid is only a gezerah, so the rabbis would never have instituted a gezerah l’gezerah. This is based on the opinion of the Ritva ([[Sukkah]] 11b). Rav Schachter (“Inyonei Sukkah”, min 44-6, 62-4) agreed, though he questioned it because this seems to fall into the category of a double d'rabbanan and not a gezerah l’gezerah. This is reiterated in [https://www.yutorah.org/sidebar/lecture.cfm/972040/rabbi-hershel-schachter/inyonei-succos-5781/ another shiur ("Inyonei Succos 5781" min 22-28)].</ref> | ||
#Using zip-ties to tie down the schach so that they don't blow away is a problem if otherwise the schach would blow away in a normal wind. After the fact, the sukkah is still acceptable, though it should be avoided. If the schach is secure enough that it'll stay for a normal wind then using the zip-ties is totally fine since it is only adding extra security to avoid uncommon winds.<ref> | |||
[https://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/818822/rabbi-aryeh-lebowitz/ten-minute-halacha-holding-the-schach-down-with-zipties/ Rav Aryeh Lebowitz] explains that the only issue of zip ties is maamid since it enables the schach to be held in place and not blow away. The entire issue of maamid is rabbinic and initially an issue but not after the fact. If the schach would be able to withstand normal winds then you can add the zip ties to add security so it doesn't blow off in an uncommon wind (ruach sheino metzuya). [https://www.star-k.org/articles/articles/seasonal/431/guide-to-star-k-certified-schach/ Star-K] and [https://oukosher.org/blog/consumer-news/ou-kosher-experts-answer-sukkot-questons-sukkah-schach-eating-sukkah/ OU] come to the same conclusion.</ref> | |||
# One shouldn't use [[schach]] with a foul odor or whose leaves are falling off because there is a concern that the person may come to leave his [[sukkah]] because of the smell or the leaves falling on him.<ref> Rambam ([[Sukkah]] 5:1), Shulchan Aruch O.C. 629:14, Chazon Ovadia pg. 30, Magen Avraham 629:15, Kaf Hachaim 639:81 </ref> After the fact, it is valid.<ref>Rambam ([[Sukkah]] 5:1)</ref> | # One shouldn't use [[schach]] with a foul odor or whose leaves are falling off because there is a concern that the person may come to leave his [[sukkah]] because of the smell or the leaves falling on him.<ref> Rambam ([[Sukkah]] 5:1), Shulchan Aruch O.C. 629:14, Chazon Ovadia pg. 30, Magen Avraham 629:15, Kaf Hachaim 639:81 </ref> After the fact, it is valid.<ref>Rambam ([[Sukkah]] 5:1)</ref> | ||
