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Making a meal on Mezonot: Difference between revisions
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* The opinion of Rav Nachman and Shmuel in Gemara [[Brachot]] 42b is the Bracha on [[Pas HaBah Bekisnin]] is [[Mezonot]] when eaten as a snack and [[HaMotzei]] when eaten as a meal. Rashi ([[Brachot]] 41b s.v. Pas) and the Rif 30a holds that if one eats [[Pas HaBah Bekisnin]] as a snack there’s either no [[Bracha Achrona]] at all or there’s only a [[Boreh Nefashot]] (see Rabbenu Yonah’s (29b s.v. Trisar) two explanations of the Rif and Tosfot’s (D”H Elah) explanation of Rashi). However, Tosfot (41b s.v. Elah) explains that the [[Bracha Achrona]] on [[Pas HaBah Bekisnin]] is [[Al HaMichya]] (if one doesn’t make it into a meal). The Rosh 6:30, Rashba s.v. Rav Huna, and Rambam ([[Brachot]] 3:9) agree with Tosfot and the Tur and S”A 168:6 codify this as halacha that for a snack one makes [[Mezonot]] and [[Al HaMichya]] and a meal one makes [[HaMotzei]] and [[Birkat HaMazon]]. | * The opinion of Rav Nachman and Shmuel in Gemara [[Brachot]] 42b is the Bracha on [[Pas HaBah Bekisnin]] is [[Mezonot]] when eaten as a snack and [[HaMotzei]] when eaten as a meal. Rashi ([[Brachot]] 41b s.v. Pas) and the Rif 30a holds that if one eats [[Pas HaBah Bekisnin]] as a snack there’s either no [[Bracha Achrona]] at all or there’s only a [[Boreh Nefashot]] (see Rabbenu Yonah’s (29b s.v. Trisar) two explanations of the Rif and Tosfot’s (D”H Elah) explanation of Rashi). However, Tosfot (41b s.v. Elah) explains that the [[Bracha Achrona]] on [[Pas HaBah Bekisnin]] is [[Al HaMichya]] (if one doesn’t make it into a meal). The Rosh 6:30, Rashba s.v. Rav Huna, and Rambam ([[Brachot]] 3:9) agree with Tosfot and the Tur and S”A 168:6 codify this as halacha that for a snack one makes [[Mezonot]] and [[Al HaMichya]] and a meal one makes [[HaMotzei]] and [[Birkat HaMazon]]. | ||
'''What is considered a meal?''' | '''What is considered a meal?''' | ||
* The Bet Yosef 168:6 quoting the Shibolei HaLeket (Siman 159), | * The Bet Yosef 168:6 quoting the Shibolei HaLeket (Siman 159), Magen Avraham 168:13, and Chaye Adam 54:14 in name of the Gra hold that the amount of meal for this halacha is the amount people normally eat at a regular meal in the morning and evening. (Mishna Brurah 168:24 and Shaar HaTziyun 19 also quote the Sefer Eshkol and Shagat Aryeh). However, the Birkei Yosef 186:4 and Kaf HaChaim 168:45 argue that the amount of a meal in this context is the same as a meal for Eruv Chatzerot which is either 3 or 4 [[KeBaytzim]]. | ||
* Ashkenazim: The Mishna Brurah 168:24 rules that the halacha follows the opinion that a meal is considered by a regular meal people eat but adds that it's proper to be strict for those who are strict to require 4 [[KeBaytzim]] (meaning, that preferably one should only eat less than 8 Kezayitim or more than the amount of a regular meal, Vezot HaBracha pg 29). VeZot HaBracha (chap 4, pg 31) writes that according to his calculation for a regular person for regular cake if one eats less than 230 grams that is considered a snack, if one eat more than 280 grams that is certainly a meal. He continues that if one did eat in between 8 Kezayitim and a certain meal, if one is not full make [[Al HaMichya]] and if one is full make [[Birkat HaMazon]], yet, in such a case it’s preferable to hear [[Birkat HaMazon]] (from someone who’s obligated to make [[Birkat HaMazon]]) or to eat bread (making [[HaMotzei]] and [[Birkat HaMazon]]). | * Ashkenazim: The Mishna Brurah 168:24 rules that the halacha follows the opinion that a meal is considered by a regular meal people eat but adds that it's proper to be strict for those who are strict to require 4 [[KeBaytzim]] (meaning, that preferably one should only eat less than 8 Kezayitim or more than the amount of a regular meal, Vezot HaBracha pg 29). VeZot HaBracha (chap 4, pg 31) writes that according to his calculation for a regular person for regular cake if one eats less than 230 grams that is considered a snack, if one eat more than 280 grams that is certainly a meal. He continues that if one did eat in between 8 Kezayitim and a certain meal, if one is not full make [[Al HaMichya]] and if one is full make [[Birkat HaMazon]], yet, in such a case it’s preferable to hear [[Birkat HaMazon]] (from someone who’s obligated to make [[Birkat HaMazon]]) or to eat bread (making [[HaMotzei]] and [[Birkat HaMazon]]). | ||
* Sephardim: Halacha Brurah 168:16 (explained in Otzorot Yosef Siman 9) writes that Sephardim hold like the Chida that if one ate 8 Kezayitim one should make [[HaMotzei]] and [[Birkat HaMazon]], and if one ate less than that one should make [[Mezonot]] and [[Al HaMichya]] but it's preferable that one shouldn't eat in between 6 and 8 Kezayitim. </ref> | * Sephardim: Halacha Brurah 168:16 (explained in Otzorot Yosef Siman 9) writes that Sephardim hold like the Chida that if one ate 8 Kezayitim one should make [[HaMotzei]] and [[Birkat HaMazon]], and if one ate less than that one should make [[Mezonot]] and [[Al HaMichya]] but it's preferable that one shouldn't eat in between 6 and 8 Kezayitim. </ref> | ||
===Amount of a meal when eaten together with other foods=== | ===Amount of a meal when eaten together with other foods=== | ||
# According to Sephardim even if Pas Haba BeKisnin is eaten with other foods those other foods are not taken into consideration when considering the amount of a meal. <ref>Kaf HaChaim 168:47 rules against the | # According to Sephardim even if Pas Haba BeKisnin is eaten with other foods those other foods are not taken into consideration when considering the amount of a meal. <ref>Kaf HaChaim 168:47 rules against the Magen Avraham 168:13 and says that S”A implies that one must be the amount of a meal from the Pat itself. </ref> However, according to Ashkenazim the following laws apply: | ||
# One shouldn’t eat a [[Kezayit]] of [[Pas HaBah Bekisnin]] together with other foods (any food even if it’s not Melaftim Et HaPat) if altogether there’s a shuir of 8 [[Kezayit]]im whether one has in mind to establish a meal or not. <ref> Mishna Brurah 168:24, Vezot HaBracha (Chapter 4, pg 32-3). Vezot HaBracha (pg 33) adds that there’s what to rely on to eat less than 8 [[Kezayit]]im of [[Pas HaBah Bekisnin]] together with food that’s not Melafet HaPat (rice, couscous, noodles, fruit, or sweets but not meat, fish, cheese, or vegetables) and make a [[Mezonot]] and [[Al HaMichya]]. </ref> | # One shouldn’t eat a [[Kezayit]] of [[Pas HaBah Bekisnin]] together with other foods (any food even if it’s not Melaftim Et HaPat) if altogether there’s a shuir of 8 [[Kezayit]]im whether one has in mind to establish a meal or not. <ref> Mishna Brurah 168:24, Vezot HaBracha (Chapter 4, pg 32-3). Vezot HaBracha (pg 33) adds that there’s what to rely on to eat less than 8 [[Kezayit]]im of [[Pas HaBah Bekisnin]] together with food that’s not Melafet HaPat (rice, couscous, noodles, fruit, or sweets but not meat, fish, cheese, or vegetables) and make a [[Mezonot]] and [[Al HaMichya]]. </ref> | ||
# A practical advice is to eat the [[Pas HaBah Bekisnin]], make Al Hamichya, and then eat the other foods, or eat the other foods, make [[Bracha Achrona]], and then eat the [[Pas HaBah Bekisnin]]. However, this advice isn’t applicable if the other foods include [[mezonot]] (such as rice or noodles) because of making an unnecessary Bracha. <ref> Vezot HaBracha (Chapter 4, pg 33). Vezot HaBracha (Birur 7 pg 234) adds that if the other foods are Tavshil [[Mezonot]] (like rice and noodles) and the above advice isn’t applicable, there’s what to rely on to eat [[Pas HaBah Bekisnin]] at the end of the meal after one ate the other foods (without making a Bracha achrona on the other foods). </ref> | # A practical advice is to eat the [[Pas HaBah Bekisnin]], make Al Hamichya, and then eat the other foods, or eat the other foods, make [[Bracha Achrona]], and then eat the [[Pas HaBah Bekisnin]]. However, this advice isn’t applicable if the other foods include [[mezonot]] (such as rice or noodles) because of making an unnecessary Bracha. <ref> Vezot HaBracha (Chapter 4, pg 33). Vezot HaBracha (Birur 7 pg 234) adds that if the other foods are Tavshil [[Mezonot]] (like rice and noodles) and the above advice isn’t applicable, there’s what to rely on to eat [[Pas HaBah Bekisnin]] at the end of the meal after one ate the other foods (without making a Bracha achrona on the other foods). </ref> | ||
