Kiddush: Difference between revisions
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#<div id="eatingbeforemussaf"></div> Once the time for [[Mussaf]] (from [[Olot HaShachar]]) it’s forbidden to eat a meal (more than a [[KeBaytzah]] of bread) before praying [[Mussaf]], however, it’s permissible to have a [[KeBaytzah]] of bread or a lot of fruit. <ref>The Gemara [[Brachot]] 28b writes that the halacha doesn’t follow Rav Huna who says that it’s forbidden to taste any food before praying [[Mussaf]]. The Tur 286:3 writes that even though we don’t hold like Rav Huna we only permit have a snack but a meal is forbidden. The Bet Yosef quotes the Raavad, Rashba, and perhaps the Rabbenu Yerucham who agree. S”A 286:3 writes that it’s forbidden to eat a meal before praying [[Mussaf]] but it’s permissible to have a snack. The Magen Avraham 286:2 writes that the snack is the same as before [[Mincha]] where S”A 232:3 writes that one may have a [[KeBaytzah]] of bread and a lot of fruit but not more. Kitzur Shulchan Aruch 77:15 agrees. See Rav Mordechai Eliyahu's comment on Kitzur Shulchan Aruch 77:15 where he writes that we only rely on this in situations of pressing need.</ref> | #<div id="eatingbeforemussaf"></div> Once the time for [[Mussaf]] (from [[Olot HaShachar]]) it’s forbidden to eat a meal (more than a [[KeBaytzah]] of bread) before praying [[Mussaf]], however, it’s permissible to have a [[KeBaytzah]] of bread or a lot of fruit. <ref>The Gemara [[Brachot]] 28b writes that the halacha doesn’t follow Rav Huna who says that it’s forbidden to taste any food before praying [[Mussaf]]. The Tur 286:3 writes that even though we don’t hold like Rav Huna we only permit have a snack but a meal is forbidden. The Bet Yosef quotes the Raavad, Rashba, and perhaps the Rabbenu Yerucham who agree. S”A 286:3 writes that it’s forbidden to eat a meal before praying [[Mussaf]] but it’s permissible to have a snack. The Magen Avraham 286:2 writes that the snack is the same as before [[Mincha]] where S”A 232:3 writes that one may have a [[KeBaytzah]] of bread and a lot of fruit but not more. Kitzur Shulchan Aruch 77:15 agrees. See Rav Mordechai Eliyahu's comment on Kitzur Shulchan Aruch 77:15 where he writes that we only rely on this in situations of pressing need.</ref> | ||
#The custom is to be lenient to permit eating even more than a Kabaytzah of baked [[Mezonot]] (cakes and cookies) before [[Mussaf]] after having made [[Kiddish]]. <ref>Shaar HaTziyun 286:7 writes that the measure for a meal before [[mussaf]] in regards to baked [[mezonot]] is the same as by [[Sukkah]]. Mishna Brurah 639:15-6 (regarding [[Sukkah]]) quotes some who say that if one establishes a meal out of the [[Pas HaBah Bekisnin]] certainly it requires a [[Sukkah]]. However, if one didn’t have it as a meal if one had more than a [[KeBaytzah]] then there’s a dispute whether one needs a [[Sukkah]] and if one eats less than a [[KeBaytzah]] then certainly it doesn’t require a [[Sukkah]]. Nonetheless, Halichot Shlomo ([[Tefillah]] 14:9, pg 179-80) writes that the minhag is to lenient to have even more than a Kabaytzah of baked [[mezonot]]. </ref> | #The custom is to be lenient to permit eating even more than a Kabaytzah of baked [[Mezonot]] (cakes and cookies) before [[Mussaf]] after having made [[Kiddish]]. <ref>Shaar HaTziyun 286:7 writes that the measure for a meal before [[mussaf]] in regards to baked [[mezonot]] is the same as by [[Sukkah]]. Mishna Brurah 639:15-6 (regarding [[Sukkah]]) quotes some who say that if one establishes a meal out of the [[Pas HaBah Bekisnin]] certainly it requires a [[Sukkah]]. However, if one didn’t have it as a meal if one had more than a [[KeBaytzah]] then there’s a dispute whether one needs a [[Sukkah]] and if one eats less than a [[KeBaytzah]] then certainly it doesn’t require a [[Sukkah]]. Nonetheless, Halichot Shlomo ([[Tefillah]] 14:9, pg 179-80) writes that the minhag is to lenient to have even more than a Kabaytzah of baked [[mezonot]]. </ref> | ||
#If one does eat before [[Mussaf]] one must first do [[Kiddish]] and have a [[Revi'it]] of wine or eat a [[Kezayit]] of baked [[mezonot]] (cakes and cookies) in order to fulfill [[Kiddish]]. <ref>Magen Avraham 286:1, Beiur Halacha 286:3 s.v. Achilat, Mishna Brurah 286:7, Shemirat | #If one does eat before [[Mussaf]] one must first do [[Kiddish]] and have a [[Revi'it]] of wine or eat a [[Kezayit]] of baked [[mezonot]] (cakes and cookies) in order to fulfill [[Kiddish]]. <ref>Magen Avraham 286:1, Beiur Halacha 286:3 s.v. Achilat, Mishna Brurah 286:7, Shemirat Shabbat KeHilchata 52:17</ref> | ||
==The Cup for Kiddish== | ==The Cup for Kiddish== | ||
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#One should begin to eat something immediately after [[Kiddish]]. After the fact, as long as one had intent to eat immediately one doesn't need to make [[Kiddish]] again even if one made a long interruption and had a Hesech HaDaat (interruption of thought). However, if one didn't have intent to eat right away and then made an interruption of 72 minutes a new Kiddush is needed. <ref>Preferably, Rama 273:3 writes that one should make one's meal immediately after [[Kiddish]]. Mishna Brurah 273:12 explains that preferably, one should eat one's meal right after [[Kiddish]] without waiting. However, Bedieved, Mishna Brurah 273:12 and Piskei Teshuvot 273:3 based on Aruch HaShulchan 263:1 write that one shouldn't make a new [[Kiddish]] even if one had a long break or made a change in place and returned to the place of the [[Kiddish]]. On the other hand, if one didn't have in mind to eat immediately and then made an interruption, Mishna Brurah 273:14 writes that a new Kiddush is needed. Halichot Olam (vol 3, pg 3) defines this interruption as 72 minutes. </ref> | #One should begin to eat something immediately after [[Kiddish]]. After the fact, as long as one had intent to eat immediately one doesn't need to make [[Kiddish]] again even if one made a long interruption and had a Hesech HaDaat (interruption of thought). However, if one didn't have intent to eat right away and then made an interruption of 72 minutes a new Kiddush is needed. <ref>Preferably, Rama 273:3 writes that one should make one's meal immediately after [[Kiddish]]. Mishna Brurah 273:12 explains that preferably, one should eat one's meal right after [[Kiddish]] without waiting. However, Bedieved, Mishna Brurah 273:12 and Piskei Teshuvot 273:3 based on Aruch HaShulchan 263:1 write that one shouldn't make a new [[Kiddish]] even if one had a long break or made a change in place and returned to the place of the [[Kiddish]]. On the other hand, if one didn't have in mind to eat immediately and then made an interruption, Mishna Brurah 273:14 writes that a new Kiddush is needed. Halichot Olam (vol 3, pg 3) defines this interruption as 72 minutes. </ref> | ||
##Even though Kiddush should be recited immediately prior to the meal, if there is a halachic need related to the meal to delay it, it is permitted. For example, the Kiddush at the seder on Pesach is made much in advance of the meal but it is acceptable since the Maggid is a necessary prerequisite to the meal.<ref>Rav Ovadia Yosef in [http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=25473&st=&pgnum=15 (Kol Sinai Tevet 5724 p. 15)] writes that Maggid doesn't make the Kiddush before the meal not adjacent to the meal because the Maggid is necessary for the meal as we need to speak about the Matzah (Lechem Shonim Alav Devarim Harbeh). Halichot Shlomo of Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach (Moadim v. 2 p. 248 9:14) agrees and explains that the Maggid is intrinsically part of the meal and such was the establishment of chazal. See Rav Chaim Palagi Haggadah regarding how Maggid is an extension of Kiddush (like the Rif cited by Avudraham why there's no bracha on Maggid since Kiddush already fulfills the mitzvah of Maggid).</ref> | ##Even though Kiddush should be recited immediately prior to the meal, if there is a halachic need related to the meal to delay it, it is permitted. For example, the Kiddush at the seder on Pesach is made much in advance of the meal but it is acceptable since the Maggid is a necessary prerequisite to the meal.<ref>Rav Ovadia Yosef in [http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=25473&st=&pgnum=15 (Kol Sinai Tevet 5724 p. 15)] writes that Maggid doesn't make the Kiddush before the meal not adjacent to the meal because the Maggid is necessary for the meal as we need to speak about the Matzah (Lechem Shonim Alav Devarim Harbeh). Halichot Shlomo of Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach (Moadim v. 2 p. 248 9:14) agrees and explains that the Maggid is intrinsically part of the meal and such was the establishment of chazal. See Rav Chaim Palagi Haggadah regarding how Maggid is an extension of Kiddush (like the Rif cited by Avudraham why there's no bracha on Maggid since Kiddush already fulfills the mitzvah of Maggid).</ref> | ||
#In order to have [[Kiddish]] in the place where one eats and that the [[Kiddish]] is considered a proper [[Kiddish]], one must eat at least a [[Kezayit]] of [[mezonot]], bread, or a reviyit of wine. <ref>Shulchan Aruch 273:5 writes in name of the Geonim that one can fulfill the obligation to eat in the place of where one makes [[Kiddish]] by eating bread or wine. Magen Avraham 273:10 and Mishna Brurah 273:21 rule that a [[Kezayit]] is needed to fulfill this obligation. Mishna Brurah 273:25 comments that certainly [[mezonot]] fulfills the obligation as it's more significant than wine. Mishna Brurah 273:25 writes in name of Hagahot Rabbi Akiva Eiger and Tosefet [[Shabbat]] that wine doesn't fulfill one's obligation according to many and so one should only rely on this in cases of need. Piskei Teshuvot writes that it seems that there's a dispute between the Magen Avraham 273:11 and the Shaarei Teshuva 289:1 whether one can fulfill one's fulfill with [[mezonot]] that's not Pat HaBah Bekisnin. The Mishna Brurah 273:25 holds like the Magen Avraham and one can fulfill one's obligation by having any [[mezonot]]. Shemirat | #In order to have [[Kiddish]] in the place where one eats and that the [[Kiddish]] is considered a proper [[Kiddish]], one must eat at least a [[Kezayit]] of [[mezonot]], bread, or a reviyit of wine. <ref>Shulchan Aruch 273:5 writes in name of the Geonim that one can fulfill the obligation to eat in the place of where one makes [[Kiddish]] by eating bread or wine. Magen Avraham 273:10 and Mishna Brurah 273:21 rule that a [[Kezayit]] is needed to fulfill this obligation. Mishna Brurah 273:25 comments that certainly [[mezonot]] fulfills the obligation as it's more significant than wine. Mishna Brurah 273:25 writes in name of Hagahot Rabbi Akiva Eiger and Tosefet [[Shabbat]] that wine doesn't fulfill one's obligation according to many and so one should only rely on this in cases of need. Piskei Teshuvot writes that it seems that there's a dispute between the Magen Avraham 273:11 and the Shaarei Teshuva 289:1 whether one can fulfill one's fulfill with [[mezonot]] that's not Pat HaBah Bekisnin. The Mishna Brurah 273:25 holds like the Magen Avraham and one can fulfill one's obligation by having any [[mezonot]]. Shemirat Shabbat KeHilchato 52:24, Sh"t Az Nidabru 8:31, Kiddush KeHilchato (pg 195), Sh"t Or Letzion (vol 2, 20:28), and Yalkut Yosef ([[Shabbat]] vol 1 pg 196; Halichot Olam (Vol 3, pg 1)) agree. </ref> Even though theoretically this applies also at night, one should be strict at night not to rely on this.<ref>Rav Ovadia Yosef in [http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=25473&st=&pgnum=13 (Kol Sinai Tevet 5724 p. 13)] writes that since some disagree with the geonim we shouldn't rely on them at night when Kiddush is Biblical.</ref> | ||
#If someone is reciting kiddush in one room and someone else is hearing the kiddush in another room if the person listening to the kiddush is going to eat his meal in the room where he is that is considered kiddush in the place of the meal. The reason is that the one fulfilling his obligation of kiddush needs to be in the room where he is going to eat his meal and not where the person making kiddush is.<ref>Maharam Chalavah Pesachim 101a explains that they used to make kiddush in shul and people in a nearby room would hear the kiddush and fulfill their obligation and eat there. It is considered kiddush in the place where they're going to eat since they're fulfilling their obligation and they're the ones eating. The location of the making kiddush doesn't impact that. Tosfot Pesachim 101a s.v. dochlu implies otherwise. Nonetheless, the Bet Yosef 273:6 cites the Rabbenu Yerucham, Smag, and Hagahot Maimoniyot who agreed with Maharam Chalavah. Shulchan Aruch OC 273:6 holds like Maharam Chalavah. Rabbi Akiva Eiger 273:2 explains that those listening to the kiddush are like making kiddush themselves.</ref> | #If someone is reciting kiddush in one room and someone else is hearing the kiddush in another room if the person listening to the kiddush is going to eat his meal in the room where he is that is considered kiddush in the place of the meal. The reason is that the one fulfilling his obligation of kiddush needs to be in the room where he is going to eat his meal and not where the person making kiddush is.<ref>Maharam Chalavah Pesachim 101a explains that they used to make kiddush in shul and people in a nearby room would hear the kiddush and fulfill their obligation and eat there. It is considered kiddush in the place where they're going to eat since they're fulfilling their obligation and they're the ones eating. The location of the making kiddush doesn't impact that. Tosfot Pesachim 101a s.v. dochlu implies otherwise. Nonetheless, the Bet Yosef 273:6 cites the Rabbenu Yerucham, Smag, and Hagahot Maimoniyot who agreed with Maharam Chalavah. Shulchan Aruch OC 273:6 holds like Maharam Chalavah. Rabbi Akiva Eiger 273:2 explains that those listening to the kiddush are like making kiddush themselves.</ref> | ||
