Interest with Non-Jews: Difference between revisions
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*The Baal HaItur (Iska 14d cited by Bet Yosef 170:1) permits when the non-Jew lent money to the Jew and there's another Jew who is a guarantor of any kind. It seems that he learned that the gemara only forbade when the non-Jew borrowed from the Jew and the Jew is a guarantor of the non-Jew. This opinion is completely outvoted by the Rashi, Rashba, Ran, Nemukei Yosef, Baal Hatrumot, and Tur all cited by the Bet Yosef 170:1.</ref> | *The Baal HaItur (Iska 14d cited by Bet Yosef 170:1) permits when the non-Jew lent money to the Jew and there's another Jew who is a guarantor of any kind. It seems that he learned that the gemara only forbade when the non-Jew borrowed from the Jew and the Jew is a guarantor of the non-Jew. This opinion is completely outvoted by the Rashi, Rashba, Ran, Nemukei Yosef, Baal Hatrumot, and Tur all cited by the Bet Yosef 170:1.</ref> | ||
#After the fact, if a Jew was a guarantor for another Jew for an interest loan from a non-Jew when it was specified that the lender would automatically claim the money from the guarantor first, which is forbidden to arrange, any interest that the guarantor paid needs to be returned. However, if it was set up such that the lender could choose to collect from the borrower or the guarantor first, which is also forbidden to arrange, however, after the fact, the money doesn't need to be returned to the guarantor.<ref>Shulchan Aruch and Rama Y.D. 170:1, Taz 170:1. The Bet Yosef explains that in cases where it is a dispute between Rashi and Rashba after the fact one doesn't have to pay because they can rely upon the Rashba. The Darkei Moshe argues that in all cases one doesn't have to return the interest after the fact since it is only rabbinic interest. Taz 170:1 rejects the opinion of the Darkei Moshe arguing that the Gemara makes it clear that it is a Biblical prohibition. Shach 170:2 defends the Rama that it would be rabbinic if the Arev isn't a Arev Shluf Dutz or a guarantor of a non-Jew borrowing from a Jew.</ref> | #After the fact, if a Jew was a guarantor for another Jew for an interest loan from a non-Jew when it was specified that the lender would automatically claim the money from the guarantor first, which is forbidden to arrange, any interest that the guarantor paid needs to be returned. However, if it was set up such that the lender could choose to collect from the borrower or the guarantor first, which is also forbidden to arrange, however, after the fact, the money doesn't need to be returned to the guarantor.<ref>Shulchan Aruch and Rama Y.D. 170:1, Taz 170:1. The Bet Yosef explains that in cases where it is a dispute between Rashi and Rashba after the fact one doesn't have to pay because they can rely upon the Rashba. The Darkei Moshe argues that in all cases one doesn't have to return the interest after the fact since it is only rabbinic interest. Taz 170:1 rejects the opinion of the Darkei Moshe arguing that the Gemara makes it clear that it is a Biblical prohibition. Shach 170:2 defends the Rama that it would be rabbinic if the Arev isn't a Arev Shluf Dutz or a guarantor of a non-Jew borrowing from a Jew.</ref> | ||
#It is permitted to pay a guarantor to be a guarantor.<ref>Taz 170:3, Nekudat Hakesef 170:2. The Taz explains that one isn't paying for the fact that the Arev is going to lend one money if he ends up paying on his behalf, rather one is merely paying so that he should ensure my loan.</ref> Some question this if the payment seems to take in account the risk that the guarantor assumed in the case he would actually have to pay and only be repaid by the borrower at a later date.<ref>Chelkat Binyamin Biurim 170:1 p. 388 s.v. hari</ref> | #It is permitted to pay a guarantor to be a guarantor.<ref>Taz 170:3, Nekudat Hakesef 170:2. The Taz explains that one isn't paying for the fact that the Arev is going to lend one money if he ends up paying on his behalf, rather one is merely paying so that he should ensure my loan.</ref> Some question this if the payment seems to take in account the risk that the guarantor assumed in the case he would actually have to pay and only be repaid by the borrower at a later date.<ref>Chelkat Binyamin Biurim 170:1 p. 388 s.v. hari. Chavot Daat 170:1 does not allow paying the guarantor to be a guarantor.</ref> Certainly one shouldn't pay a guarantor to be a guarantor whom the lender goes to be paid before he goes to the borrower (Arev Shluf Dutz).<ref>Taz 170:3 forbids, while Shach in Nekudat Hakesef 170:2 questions it. Chavot Daat 170:1 is strict. Chelkat Binyamin 170:12 for an Erev Kablan cites the dispute but sounds like many are lenient, while for Arev Shluf Dutz only writes that many forbid it.</ref> | ||
#One may not enter into a guarantor relationship that is forbidden even if doesn't end up paying interest.<ref>Can you arrange to be a guarantor that is forbidden if you don't end up paying interest? Nekudat Hakesef 170:3 implies that there's no prohibition. Taz 170:5 disagrees. Bet Meir 170 questions the Nekudat Hakesef. Most achronim disagree with the Shach, primarily because the Gemara Bava Metsia 75b and 71b strongly imply that there is a Biblical prohibition to arrange to be a guarantor that is forbidden. Some answer that the Nekudat Hakesef would limit the gemara to cases where the guarantor is a for a Jew who is borrowing with interest from a Jew and not from a non-Jew (Mishnat Shmuel Arvut Bribit p. 26, Dvar Shalom Ribit Horovitz p. 304). Others answer that the Nekudat Hakesef would be limited to a guarantor that is only rabbinically forbidden such as a Arev Kablan but not an Arev Shluf Dutz (Neitvot Moshe on Taz 170:5 citing Shevilei Dovid and R' Aryeh Leib). Shaar Deah 170:5 disagrees with the Nekudat Hakesef and proves it from the Raavan. Either way, most argue with the Nekudat Hakesef (Brit Yehuda ch. 1 fnt. 33).</ref> | #One may not enter into a guarantor relationship that is forbidden even if doesn't end up paying interest.<ref>Can you arrange to be a guarantor that is forbidden if you don't end up paying interest? Nekudat Hakesef 170:3 implies that there's no prohibition. Taz 170:5 disagrees. Bet Meir 170 questions the Nekudat Hakesef. Most achronim disagree with the Shach, primarily because the Gemara Bava Metsia 75b and 71b strongly imply that there is a Biblical prohibition to arrange to be a guarantor that is forbidden. Some answer that the Nekudat Hakesef would limit the gemara to cases where the guarantor is a for a Jew who is borrowing with interest from a Jew and not from a non-Jew (Mishnat Shmuel Arvut Bribit p. 26, Dvar Shalom Ribit Horovitz p. 304). Others answer that the Nekudat Hakesef would be limited to a guarantor that is only rabbinically forbidden such as a Arev Kablan but not an Arev Shluf Dutz (Neitvot Moshe on Taz 170:5 citing Shevilei Dovid and R' Aryeh Leib). Shaar Deah 170:5 disagrees with the Nekudat Hakesef and proves it from the Raavan. Either way, most argue with the Nekudat Hakesef (Brit Yehuda ch. 1 fnt. 33).</ref> | ||
#A non-Jew who borrowed from a Jew, another Jew may be a guarantor of the non-Jew if the stipulation is that the lender goes to the borrower to be paid first.<ref>Bet Yosef 170:1 clarifies that everyone agrees that for a non-Jew who borrows from a Jew one may not be an Arev Shluf Dutz, one may be a Arev Stam, and there's a dispute between Rashi and Rashba whether one can be an Arev Kablan. Ran holds that even those who subscribe to the Rashba in the case of a Jew who borrowed from a non-Jew agree when the non-Jew borrows from a Jew that they agree with Rashi that one may not be an Arev Kablan. Bet Yosef 170:1 favors the view of the Rashba (teshuva meyucheset lramban 223) who holds in either case of a non-Jew lending or borrowing from a Jew one can be an Arev Kablan, though initially we follow Rashi. Shach sides with the Ran. Rabbi Akiva Eiger (on Shach 170:3) mentions that the Rashba disagrees. | #A non-Jew who borrowed from a Jew, another Jew may be a guarantor of the non-Jew if the stipulation is that the lender goes to the borrower to be paid first.<ref>Bet Yosef 170:1 clarifies that everyone agrees that for a non-Jew who borrows from a Jew one may not be an Arev Shluf Dutz, one may be a Arev Stam, and there's a dispute between Rashi and Rashba whether one can be an Arev Kablan. Ran holds that even those who subscribe to the Rashba in the case of a Jew who borrowed from a non-Jew agree when the non-Jew borrows from a Jew that they agree with Rashi that one may not be an Arev Kablan. Bet Yosef 170:1 favors the view of the Rashba (teshuva meyucheset lramban 223) who holds in either case of a non-Jew lending or borrowing from a Jew one can be an Arev Kablan, though initially we follow Rashi. Shach sides with the Ran. Rabbi Akiva Eiger (on Shach 170:3) mentions that the Rashba disagrees. | ||
