Interest with Non-Jews: Difference between revisions
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→Lending with Interest from a Non-Jew with a Jewish Agent using a Security Deposit
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#If the original Jew wants to get his security deposit back from the other Jew who lent to the non-Jew and the non-Jew isn't cooperating, the lender Jew doesn't need to work with the borrower Jew since they didn't have any transaction one to another.<ref>Rosh responsa 108:8, Rama 168:9</ref> | #If the original Jew wants to get his security deposit back from the other Jew who lent to the non-Jew and the non-Jew isn't cooperating, the lender Jew doesn't need to work with the borrower Jew since they didn't have any transaction one to another.<ref>Rosh responsa 108:8, Rama 168:9</ref> | ||
#If a Jew has a security deposit of a non-Jew in his hands and the non-Jew direct him to use it to borrow from another Jew with interest on his behalf, the first Jew may do so.<ref>Mordechai 337 writes that a Jew can use a non-Jew's security deposit to borrow from a Jew with interest if he is instructed so by the non-Jew. The Mordechai seems to apply this even to the case where the Jew didn't have the non-Jew's deposit but instead wanted to gift him a deposit of his own for its value. The Bet Yosef is troubled by this leniency since there's no mechanism by which the non-Jew is actually acquiring the deposit. Taz 168:14 gives a nuanced explanation that it was sold to the second Jew with a condition that the non-Jew could buy it back. Bach 168:13 and Nekudat Hakesef 168:11 explain that once a owner admits to the fact someone else owns his item it halachically belongs to that person (''kinyan odita'') and that is sufficient to remove the prohibition of ribbit. Either way, the Rama 169:11 concludes that we assume that it is impossible to gift a deposit to a non-Jew without him making a physical [[kinyan]] such as meshicha.</ref> | #If a Jew has a security deposit of a non-Jew in his hands and the non-Jew direct him to use it to borrow from another Jew with interest on his behalf, the first Jew may do so.<ref>Mordechai 337 writes that a Jew can use a non-Jew's security deposit to borrow from a Jew with interest if he is instructed so by the non-Jew. The Mordechai seems to apply this even to the case where the Jew didn't have the non-Jew's deposit but instead wanted to gift him a deposit of his own for its value. The Bet Yosef is troubled by this leniency since there's no mechanism by which the non-Jew is actually acquiring the deposit. Taz 168:14 gives a nuanced explanation that it was sold to the second Jew with a condition that the non-Jew could buy it back. Bach 168:13 and Nekudat Hakesef 168:11 explain that once a owner admits to the fact someone else owns his item it halachically belongs to that person (''kinyan odita'') and that is sufficient to remove the prohibition of ribbit. Either way, the Rama 169:11 concludes that we assume that it is impossible to gift a deposit to a non-Jew without him making a physical [[kinyan]] such as meshicha.</ref> | ||
#If a Jew lent from another Jew and got a collateral for that loan, and specified that if the Jew didn’t pay up on time he would either sell the collateral or borrow against it with interest. If he then borrowed against it with interest from a non-Jew, he isn’t responsible to pay the interest for the loan since that was the stipulation. Instead the Jewish borrower needs to pay the interest in order to redeem his collateral.<ref>Rashba responsa cited by Bet Yosef 168:26 explains that once they stipulated that the lender Jew can borrow with interest against the collateral we understand that to mean that the lender Jew isn’t borrowing from the non-Jew for himself, rather he is doing so as an agent of the other Jew. Therefore, the borrower Jew can repay the interest to the non-Jew and it isn’t interest to the lender Jew since he is neither a lender or a guarantor of the loan, he is simply the agent. Shaar Mishpat 168:13 cites this Rashba but also cites the Maharit YD 46 based on the Maharam who argues that it is an asmachta and isn't binding. Therefore, the lender couldn't lend to the non-Jew with interest on that collateral. Shulchan Gavoha 168:50 cites this Rashba and fundamentally puts it in the same camp as the Rosh which is codified by Shulchan Aruch 168:26. Kovetz Halichot Horah Ribbit v. 5 p. 316-7 explains that it is necessary for the Rashba and Ramban 71a that the lender Jew be the agent of the original borrower as well as the fact that the non-Jew is collecting from the collateral. The reason is that if it was simply that the non-Jew would collect from the collateral but the Jewish lender was never appointed as an agent then he is in essence borrowing for himself with interest and having another Jew repay his interest using his collateral.</ref> | |||
#If a Jew lent from another Jew and got a collateral for that loan, he can then use that collateral to borrow with interest from a non-Jew. He should specify to the non-Jew that he is borrowing on behalf of another Jew and he has no responsibility. Alternatively, if the collateral is worth the entire value of the loan he can use it to borrow from the non-Jew with interest. Then the original borrower Jew can pay the non-Jew the interest and redeem his collateral. The Jewish lender was simply the agent of the first Jew to borrow with interest from a non-Jew.<ref>Tashbetz Katan 486 writes that if the Jewish lender specifies to the non-Jew that he is borrowing on behalf of another Jew it is permitted, otherwise it is like he is borrowing for himself and having the original borrower Jew pay the interest is forbidden. Yet, the Bet Yosef 168:26 points out that the Rosh implies that it is permitted for the original borrower to pay the interest even if the lender Jew didn’t make that stipulation. Shulchan Aruch 168:26 simply quotes the case without specifically mentioning that stipulation. Shach 168:82 explains that the Tashbetz Katan and Rosh agree. Either a stipulation is necessary or having a collateral that is worth the entire value of the loan and interest. Otherwise it is forbidden. Chelkat Binyamin 168:291 agrees. Mayin Ganim Abadi YD 9 shows at length that the Bet Yosef thought that there is a dispute between the Tashbetz Katan and Rosh. The Rosh thinks that even without specifying it is assumed that the non-Jew depends on the collateral and there’s no responsibility upon the Jew. However, the Tashbetz Katan thinks that only if the Jew specifies that is it so, otherwise we assume that the non-Jew will hold responsible the Jew who is borrowing from him as well as from the collateral, in which case it would be forbidden for the original borrower to pay the interest. Erech Lechem 168:17 implies this as well. He explains that the Ran cited in Shulchan Aruch 168:17 implies like the Tashbetz Katan, yet, Shulchan Aruch ultimately sided with the Rosh and Rashba unlike the Tashbetz Katan and Ran.</ref> | |||
#If a Jew wants to borrow from a non-Jew with interest and he asks another Jew to be his agent, he can do so. If he gives him a collateral then it isn’t necessary for the agent to specify that he is borrowing on behalf of someone else since the non-Jew is ready to collect from the collateral.<ref>Rosh b”m 5:56, Tur and Shulchan Aruch 168:17. Bet Yosef 168:17 based on the Nemukei Yosef 44a clarifies that it is insufficient to say that the collateral serves as the place where the non-Jew can collect, rather he needs even to specify that he bares no responsibility. Shach 168:52 cites this opinion. Shulchan Aruch 170:1 follows that opinion.</ref> Some say that as long as the collateral is actually worth the value of the loan and interest, then it is automatic that the non-Jew is ready to collect from the collateral and his lien applies to that and not to the Jew.<ref>Shach 168:51</ref> | |||
#If a Jew wants to borrow from a non-Jew with interest and he asks another Jew to be his agent, he can do so. Yet, it is important that the agent specify with the non-Jew that he is indeed borrowing on behalf of another Jew and he bares no responsibility.<ref>Tur and Shulchan Aruch 168:17</ref> | |||
#It is an issue if the Jewish agent has any responsibility for the loan even to serve as a guarantor that can be collected from first (Arev Kablan), rather the non-Jew needs to completely be able to collect from the collateral.<ref>Bet Yosef 168:17 cites the Ran (Nemukei Yosef 42a) who holds that it is forbidden to be an Arev Kablan for another Jew.</ref> | |||
#A Jewish agent brought a collateral from a non-Jew to another Jew in order to borrow with interest. After the loan is due, the lender Jew can ask the agent to show him which non-Jew he lent to but can not ask the agent to pay for the asked the agent to redeem the non-Jew’s collateral and pay for the loan.<ref>Bet Yosef 168:27 cites the Rashba 3:47 who speaks of a case where a Jew brought a collateral from a non-Jew to another Jew in order to borrow with interest, then the lender Jew asked the agent to redeem the non-Jew’s collateral and pay for the loan. The Rashba rules that it is forbidden for the agent Jew to pay the loan and interest since he is merely an agent. He must though indicate to the lender Jew who is the non-Jew who borrowed the money. Shulchan Aruch YD 168:27 codifies the Rashba. Shach 168:83 explains that the agent has no responsibility to sell or buy the collateral from the lender.</ref> | |||
====Non-Jew Borrowed from Jew with Collateral and Jewish Agent==== | ====Non-Jew Borrowed from Jew with Collateral and Jewish Agent==== | ||
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#A Jewish agent brought a collateral from a non-Jew to another Jew in order to borrow with interest. After the loan is due, the lender Jew can ask the agent to show him which non-Jew he lent to but can not ask the agent to pay for the asked the agent to redeem the non-Jew’s collateral and pay for the loan.<ref>Bet Yosef 168:27 cites the Rashba 3:47 who speaks of a case where a Jew brought a collateral from a non-Jew to another Jew in order to borrow with interest, then the lender Jew asked the agent to redeem the non-Jew’s collateral and pay for the loan. The Rashba rules that it is forbidden for the agent Jew to pay the loan and interest since he is merely an agent. He must though indicate to the lender Jew who is the non-Jew who borrowed the money. Shulchan Aruch YD 168:27 codifies the Rashba. Shach 168:83 explains that the agent has no responsibility to sell or buy the collateral from the lender.</ref> | #A Jewish agent brought a collateral from a non-Jew to another Jew in order to borrow with interest. After the loan is due, the lender Jew can ask the agent to show him which non-Jew he lent to but can not ask the agent to pay for the asked the agent to redeem the non-Jew’s collateral and pay for the loan.<ref>Bet Yosef 168:27 cites the Rashba 3:47 who speaks of a case where a Jew brought a collateral from a non-Jew to another Jew in order to borrow with interest, then the lender Jew asked the agent to redeem the non-Jew’s collateral and pay for the loan. The Rashba rules that it is forbidden for the agent Jew to pay the loan and interest since he is merely an agent. He must though indicate to the lender Jew who is the non-Jew who borrowed the money. Shulchan Aruch YD 168:27 codifies the Rashba. Shach 168:83 explains that the agent has no responsibility to sell or buy the collateral from the lender.</ref> | ||
==== | ====Borrowing on Behalf of a Community==== | ||
#If a few Jewish administrators of a community or communal institution want to borrow with interest from a non-Jew on behalf of the community and then they lent it to the community with interest that is forbidden since ultimately the non-Jew will old the Jewish administrators responsible.<ref>Rashba responsa 5:259 writes that he heard that in many communities they will have the administrators of a community borrow with interest from a non-Jew on behalf of the community and then he lends it out with interest to the rest of the congregation. Rashba writes vehemently that there is nothing to rely upon. Rama 168:17 ambiguously quotes this practice without endorsing it or dismissing it.</ref> | |||
#If an administrator for a community borrows from a non-Jew in order to pay for a communal construction project, according to some, he may be paid back by the community including the interest.<ref>Pitchei Teshuva 168:4 cites Chatom Sofer YD 135 who writes that once an administrator of the community borrowed from a non-Jew with interest for building a communal building for guests. Then he charged the community to each pay their share of the cost. He cites the Ranach 58 who permitted a contractor who borrowed with interest from non-Jews to be repaid by the community since they are essentially paying for the building and not interest for a loan.</ref> | |||
===Jew Borrowed from Non-Jew and then Non-Jew Borrows from Jew=== | |||
#If a Jew | #If a Jew borrowed from a non-Jew with a collateral and then the non-Jew for his own purposes borrowed from another Jew with the same collateral it is permitted for the second Jew to collect interest from the non-Jew, even if the non-Jew will in turn force the first Jew to pay interest.<ref>Tur 168:20 quotes the Baal Haitur that if a Jew borrowed from a non-Jew with a collateral and now the non-Jew is borrowing from another Jew with the same collateral the second Jew may not accept the interest from the non-Jew since it is as though it is coming from the Jew. However, the Rosh Pesachim 2:10 and Rashba 3:229 disagree. Once the Jew borrows from the non-Jew it is completely permitted and if the non-Jew then borrows from another Jew that is disconnected. The Bet Yosef 168:20 cites the Ran b”m 71b s.v. veharamban and Baal Hatrumot 46:4:10 who side with the Baal Haitur. Yet, the Baal Hatrumot adds that if the non-Jew accepts responsibility for the loan he’s taking from the second Jew it is permitted. Shulchan Aruch 168:20 cites the Rosh and Rashba as the main opinion and the Baal Haitur as some say.</ref> | ||
====When the Deposit was Taken Forcibly==== | ====When the Deposit was Taken Forcibly==== | ||
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##If the non-Jew forcibly took the deposit from the first Jew then we assume that the deposit wasn't really acquired by the non-Jew and so when it is used to borrow against another Jew it is like there's a deal between the two Jews.<ref>Bet Yosef 168:10 in his second answer, Shach 168:26, 67, Taz 168:11. Gra 168:23 disagrees.</ref> | ##If the non-Jew forcibly took the deposit from the first Jew then we assume that the deposit wasn't really acquired by the non-Jew and so when it is used to borrow against another Jew it is like there's a deal between the two Jews.<ref>Bet Yosef 168:10 in his second answer, Shach 168:26, 67, Taz 168:11. Gra 168:23 disagrees.</ref> | ||
##Additionally, if the non-Jew immediately took that deposit from the first Jew and used it to borrow from the second Jew then it appears that he did so only to create a loan between two Jews. However, if he held onto it for some time for himself then it isn't an issue.<ref>Bet Yosef 168:10 in his first answer, Shach 168:67</ref> | ##Additionally, if the non-Jew immediately took that deposit from the first Jew and used it to borrow from the second Jew then it appears that he did so only to create a loan between two Jews. However, if he held onto it for some time for himself then it isn't an issue.<ref>Bet Yosef 168:10 in his first answer, Shach 168:67</ref> | ||
==Selling Debt== | |||
===Non-Jew Selling Jewish Debt=== | |||
#If a Jew owed a non-Jew capital and interest, that non-Jew can sell that debt to another Jew. If the non-Jew collects the interest it is permitted for the Jew to accept it, yet if he doesn't then the second Jew shouldn't collect the interest from the first Jew.<ref>Rashba responsa 1:764 cited by Darkei Moshe 168:6, Bedek Habayit 168:27, and Knesset Hagedola (Bet Yosef 168:44).</ref> | |||
===Jew Selling Non-Jewish Debt=== | |||
#If a Jew lent a non-Jew with interest upon a security deposit of the non-Jew. Then the non-Jew sold the security deposit to another Jew and he was told to pay the debt to the first Jew and collect the security deposit. This transaction is totally permitted since the loan was made between the Jew and non-Jew and then there was a sale of the non-Jewish debt to a Jew.<ref>Rosh responsa 108:25, Shulchan Aruch 168:12</ref> | |||
#However, if the Jew who bought the debt then didn't pay off the debt immediately in order to redeem the deposit and only paid it after some time, thereby accruing a further interest charge upon the non-Jewish lender, the non-Jew may pay that interest charge to the Jewish lender even if the non-Jew in turn forces the Jewish buyer to pay him for that interest charge. But the Jewish buyer may not pay the interest to the Jewish lender because that would paying interest.<ref>Rosh responsa 108:25, Shulchan Aruch 168:12</ref> | |||
#If a | |||
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===Selling a Non-Jew's Debt to Another Jew=== | ===Selling a Non-Jew's Debt to Another Jew=== | ||
