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Interest with Non-Jews: Difference between revisions
From Halachipedia
→Non-Jew borrowing with Interest from a Jew through a Jewish Agent
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# If a Jew told a non-Jew to borrow for him from another non-Jew with interest and he went and borrowed from a Jew with interest the borrower can even pay the interest.<ref>Mordechai b"m 337, Shulchan Aruch Y.D. 168:8. Shach 168:19 and Taz 168:9 argue that just like the lender can collect the interest the borrower can pay it. However, it appears from the Bet Yosef that only the lender can collect it but it is forbidden for the lender to collect it. Horah Brurah 168:34 follows the Shach and Taz that if the non-Jew didn't follow the orders of the borrower it is then permitted for both the lender and borrower to exchange the interest at the end.</ref> | # If a Jew told a non-Jew to borrow for him from another non-Jew with interest and he went and borrowed from a Jew with interest the borrower can even pay the interest.<ref>Mordechai b"m 337, Shulchan Aruch Y.D. 168:8. Shach 168:19 and Taz 168:9 argue that just like the lender can collect the interest the borrower can pay it. However, it appears from the Bet Yosef that only the lender can collect it but it is forbidden for the lender to collect it. Horah Brurah 168:34 follows the Shach and Taz that if the non-Jew didn't follow the orders of the borrower it is then permitted for both the lender and borrower to exchange the interest at the end.</ref> | ||
===Non-Jew borrowing with Interest from a Jew through a Jewish Agent=== | ===Non-Jew borrowing with Interest from a Jew through a Jewish Agent=== | ||
# If a non-Jew asks a Jew to borrow for him from another Jew with interest the Jewish agent may do his job as long as he says clearly that he is borrowing with interest on behalf of a non-Jew or the transaction is happening in the presence of the non-Jew.<ref>Ran b"m 71b s.v. mahu, Nemukei Yosef 42a, Hagaot Ashri 5:42, Rosh responsa 108:5, Raavan 103, and Smak 260 all cited by Bet Yosef 168:13. Baal Hatrumot 46:4:10 citing Ramban b"m 71b s.v. vgoy explains that even though the Jewish agent can't halachically become the agent of the non-Jew since there's no agency for non-Jews, the Jewish agent can be the agent of the lender.</ref> | # If a non-Jew asks a Jew to borrow for him from another Jew with interest the Jewish agent may do his job as long as he says clearly that he is borrowing with interest on behalf of a non-Jew or the transaction is happening in the presence of the non-Jew.<ref>Ran b"m 71b s.v. mahu, Nemukei Yosef 42a, Hagaot Ashri 5:42, Rosh responsa 108:5, Raavan 103, and Smak 260 all cited by Bet Yosef 168:13. Baal Hatrumot 46:4:10 citing Ramban b"m 71b s.v. vgoy explains that even though the Jewish agent can't halachically become the agent of the non-Jew since there's no agency for non-Jews, the Jewish agent can be the agent of the lender.</ref> | ||
# The agent can't take upon himself responsibility for the capital or the interest. If he takes upon himself responsibility for either one that is considered as though the agent is a borrower and there is interest when the lender takes interest from the borrower.<ref>Shulchan Aruch 168:13</ref> | |||
# The agent can't take upon himself responsibility for the collateral getting lost or stolen, rather the lender needs to take such responsibility. If he takes upon the regular type of responsibility as a [[shomer]] would generally take that is permitted. However, he may not take responsibility for unexpected circumstances.<ref>Shulchan Aruch Y.D. 168:16 based on the Rosh in disagreement with the Ramah who allowed taking even responsibility for unexpected events. </ref> If they didn't specify this responsibility and it was left unclear, after the fact, we can assume that the Jewish lender and the agent would want to arrange it in the permitted fashion.<ref>Shach 168:36 citing Bach</ref> | |||
# If the non-Jew never comes to pay the loan with the interest the agent may not pay it.<ref>Shulchan Aruch Y.D. 168:14</ref> | |||
## Additionally, the lender may not force the agent to buy the collateral for the price of the capital and interest.<ref>Rama 168:14, Shach 168:47, Taz 168:20, Bach 168:15, Chelkat Binyamin 168:148. According to the Taz this is even the opinion of Shulchan Aruch, but according to the Shach and Bach this is only the opinion of the Rama and Shulchan Aruch would disagree.</ref> | |||
## However, if the agent wants to buy the collateral for the capital and interest he can do so.<ref>Rama 168:14, Shach 168:47, Taz 168:20, Bach 168:15</ref> | |||
# If the non-Jew never comes to pay the loan the lender can sell the collateral and keep the value. The agent can't stop the lender from doing so out of fear of the non-Jew since the lender isn't really incumbent to the agent or the non-Jew.<ref>Shulchan Aruch Y.D. 168:15, Rosh responsa 108:6</ref> Some say that if the agent was originally appointed by the lender to do this loan with the non-Jew, then if the agent is afraid of the ramifications of the lender selling the collateral, then the lender must listen and if he doesn't then he must pay for damages to the agent.<ref>Levush 168:15, Shach 168:50, Chelkat Binyamin 168:156. The explanation of the Levush is that essentially since the agent isn't a borrower he can tell the lender to do or not do something and that poses no issue. The lender should be cautious of the damages that can occur to the agent, however, if the agent arranged with the non-Jew and not the lender, then the lender doesn't have to be concerned. It is the responsibility of the agent. If the agent was originated commissioned by the Jewish lender then it is a concern for the lender that he doesn't cause a damage to the agent. The Taz 168:20 and Bet Meir disagree with the Levush. They hold that the lender doesn't have to listen to the agent in any event. They explain that the source for this halacha is the Rosh and he held that the borrower shouldn't take any responsibility for the collateral and yet he writes that he doesn't need to listen to the agent. Shach in Nekudat Hakesef 168:14 answers that these are two separate statements of the Rosh. The Bet Meir doesn't understand the Shach since the Rosh either way would discuss a permissible case according to his opinion.</ref> | |||
===Lending with Interest with a Non-Jewish Agent using a Security Deposit=== | ===Lending with Interest with a Non-Jewish Agent using a Security Deposit=== | ||
