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Interest with Non-Jews: Difference between revisions
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#It is forbidden to say that one wants to borrow from another Jew with interest on or in exchange for a non-Jew’s collateral which was given to the first Jew because of a interest loan.<Ref>Rosh responsa 108:28 writes that if a Jew who lent to a non-Jew with interest asks another Jew to lend him money with interest on the collateral he received from the non-Jew that is considered taking interest. What exactly is the issue with this formulation? The Shach contends that as long as one says that one wants to borrow from another Jew with interest on a non-Jewish collateral we can’t reinterepert his words and since he said he wanted to borrow with interest that is how we view his transaction. However, if he wouldn’t explain the transaction at all, we would explain him to mean that he intended to buy it since we’d prefer to say he did something permitted. Chelkat Binyamin 168:236 sides with the Shach. He explains that there’s a fundamental difference between a sale and a loan. A sale is where the first Jew is completely removed from any dealings with the non-Jew and if he collects anything from the non-Jew he must give it to the second Jew. A loan is where the first Jew must pay the second Jew whether or not the non-Jew will pay. The Bach 168:26 disagrees and explains that there is a minhag to be lenient even if one says that one intends to borrow because we reinterpret it to mean to buy. Taz seems to agree. The Bet Yosef and Taz imply that the reason for the Rosh isn’t because of his incriminating words but rather because of his motivation. If the Jewish lender would have borrowed on that collateral for the benefit of the non-Jew it wouldn’t be considered a Jewish loan. However, as long as the motivation is for the needs of the Jew we understand that transaction between the two Jews to be a loan and not a sale.</ref> | #It is forbidden to say that one wants to borrow from another Jew with interest on or in exchange for a non-Jew’s collateral which was given to the first Jew because of a interest loan.<Ref>Rosh responsa 108:28 writes that if a Jew who lent to a non-Jew with interest asks another Jew to lend him money with interest on the collateral he received from the non-Jew that is considered taking interest. What exactly is the issue with this formulation? The Shach contends that as long as one says that one wants to borrow from another Jew with interest on a non-Jewish collateral we can’t reinterepert his words and since he said he wanted to borrow with interest that is how we view his transaction. However, if he wouldn’t explain the transaction at all, we would explain him to mean that he intended to buy it since we’d prefer to say he did something permitted. Chelkat Binyamin 168:236 sides with the Shach. He explains that there’s a fundamental difference between a sale and a loan. A sale is where the first Jew is completely removed from any dealings with the non-Jew and if he collects anything from the non-Jew he must give it to the second Jew. A loan is where the first Jew must pay the second Jew whether or not the non-Jew will pay. The Bach 168:26 disagrees and explains that there is a minhag to be lenient even if one says that one intends to borrow because we reinterpret it to mean to buy. Taz seems to agree. The Bet Yosef and Taz imply that the reason for the Rosh isn’t because of his incriminating words but rather because of his motivation. If the Jewish lender would have borrowed on that collateral for the benefit of the non-Jew it wouldn’t be considered a Jewish loan. However, as long as the motivation is for the needs of the Jew we understand that transaction between the two Jews to be a loan and not a sale.</ref> | ||
# If a Jew borrowed from a non-Jew with a collateral and then the non-Jew for his own purposes borrowed from another Jew with the same collateral it is permitted for the second Jew to collect interest from the non-Jew, even if the non-Jew will in turn force the first Jew to pay interest.<ref>Tur 168:20 quotes the Baal Haitur that if a Jew borrowed from a non-Jew with a collateral and now the non-Jew is borrowing from another Jew with the same collateral the second Jew may not accept the interest from the non-Jew since it is as though it is coming from the Jew. However, the Rosh Pesachim 2:10 and Rashba 3:229 disagree. Once the Jew borrows from the non-Jew it is completely permitted and if the non-Jew then borrows from another Jew that is disconnected. The Bet Yosef 168:20 cites the Ran b”m 71b s.v. veharamban and Baal Hatrumot 46:4:10 who side with the Baal Haitur. Yet, the Baal Hatrumot adds that if the non-Jew accepts responsibility for the loan he’s taking from the second Jew it is permitted. Shulchan Aruch 168:20 cites the Rosh and Rashba as the main opinion and the Baal Haitur as some say.</ref> | # If a Jew borrowed from a non-Jew with a collateral and then the non-Jew for his own purposes borrowed from another Jew with the same collateral it is permitted for the second Jew to collect interest from the non-Jew, even if the non-Jew will in turn force the first Jew to pay interest.<ref>Tur 168:20 quotes the Baal Haitur that if a Jew borrowed from a non-Jew with a collateral and now the non-Jew is borrowing from another Jew with the same collateral the second Jew may not accept the interest from the non-Jew since it is as though it is coming from the Jew. However, the Rosh Pesachim 2:10 and Rashba 3:229 disagree. Once the Jew borrows from the non-Jew it is completely permitted and if the non-Jew then borrows from another Jew that is disconnected. The Bet Yosef 168:20 cites the Ran b”m 71b s.v. veharamban and Baal Hatrumot 46:4:10 who side with the Baal Haitur. Yet, the Baal Hatrumot adds that if the non-Jew accepts responsibility for the loan he’s taking from the second Jew it is permitted. Shulchan Aruch 168:20 cites the Rosh and Rashba as the main opinion and the Baal Haitur as some say.</ref> | ||
===Jewish Money Deposited with Non-Jew Used for Jewish Loan=== | |||
#If a Jew deposits money with a non-Jew it is permitted for another Jew to borrow from that non-Jew with interest as long as the non-Jew took responsibility to the first Jew like a borrower.<ref>The Tosefta b”m 5:8 states that if a Jew deposited money with a non-Jew if the non-Jew took responsibility for it then he can lend it to another Jew with interest. Although the Baal Hatrumot 1:46:2:6 quotes someone who held we don’t follow the Tosefta, in 7:1 he writes that we do follow the Tosefta. Also, the Rosh b”m 5:56 and Tur and Shulchan Aruch Y.D. 168:21 codify it. Bet Yosef 168:21 isn’t certain what is the definition of the amount of responsibility that the non-Jew must accept in order to permit this. Does it mean that the non-Jew has responsibility like a watchman or does he need to take responsibility like a borrower who even if it is lost is obligated? He quotes the Baal Hatrumot assumed it was the latter. Shach 168:68 and Taz 168:31 agree.</ref> | |||
===Non-Jewish Money Deposited with Non-Jew Used for Jewish Loan=== | |||
#Money deposited by a non-Jew with a Jew, if the Jew accepts responsibility for them as a lona, he may not then lend them with interest. However, if he didn’t accept responsibility if he lent them to another Jew he didn’t take interest. Nonetheless, it is generally forbidden to do so since it is suspicious (marit ayin) and appears like taking interest from another Jew.<ref>The Tosefta b”m 5:8 states that if a non-Jew deposited money with a Jew he can lend it to another Jew with interest if the first Jew doesn’t have responsibility for the loan. The Bet Yosef 168:22 quotes the Baal Hatrumot 7:1 who explains that if the Jew has responsibility for the loan if it isn’t paid up that is a problem, however, if he merely accepts responsibility to pay while it is in his domain that is permissible since if something happens he can pay and there was no loan at all. Shach 168:69 and Taz 168:33 agree. Nonetheless, even in the first case, the Tur 168:23 writes that there is a problem because people will suspect that the first Jew is lending his own money to another Jew with interest.</ref> | |||
# The issue of doing something that appears suspicious is avoided when it is well known that the Jew involved is an administrator for the non-Jew’s money and is merely lending the non-Jew’s money and not his own.<ref>Ran b”m 61b s.v. ani cited by Bet Yosef 168:23 writes that if a Jew is appointed a financial administrator over the non-Jew’s money he no longer has to be concerned with marit ayin since people won’t suspect him of lending his own money. Talmidei Harashba similarly holds that if it is the Jew’s profession to deal with the non-Jew’s money then there’s no suspicion. Baal Hatrumot 7:1 in fact only requires that the lender express to the borrower that it isn’t his own money. Rama 168:23 and Shach 168:71 accept the Ran and Talmidei Harashba, not the Baal Hatrumot.</ref> | |||
===Non-Jew Hired by Jew to Lend His Money with Interest=== | |||
#If a Jew hires a non-Jew to lend out his money with interest to Jews, it is only permitted if the non-Jew is merely an agent and accepts responsibility. Otherwise it is forbidden.<ref>The Tur 168:23 extends the cases of the Tosefta to include cases of where a Jew hires a non-Jew to lend his money out with interest. Again, it all depends on who takes the responsibility for the loan. Shulchan Aruch 168:23 codifies this.</ref> | |||
===Jew Hired by Non-Jew to Lend His Money with Interest=== | |||
#If a non-Jew hires a Jew to lend out his money with interest to Jews, it is forbidden if the Jewish employee accepts responsibility as a loan. Even if he doesn’t accept responsibility and technically it is a non-Jewish loan, nonetheless, there is a concern for suspicion (marit ayin) that it appears to be interest between two Jews.<Ref>Tur and Shulchan Aruch 168:23</ref> | |||
===Interest Gifted to A Jew or Non-Jew=== | ===Interest Gifted to A Jew or Non-Jew=== | ||
# It is forbidden to lend another Jew money in order that he give the interest to a non-Jew.<ref>Shulchan Aruch Y.D. 168:1</ref> | # It is forbidden to lend another Jew money in order that he give the interest to a non-Jew.<ref>Shulchan Aruch Y.D. 168:1</ref> | ||
# It is permitted for a Jew to borrow from a non-Jew even if afterwards the non-Jew gives the interest to a Jew.<ref>Shulchan Aruch Y.D. 168:4</ref> | # It is permitted for a Jew to borrow from a non-Jew even if afterwards the non-Jew gives the interest to a Jew.<ref>Shulchan Aruch Y.D. 168:4</ref> | ||
==Disputes about the Arrangement== | ==Disputes about the Arrangement== | ||
#If the borrower claims that his lender charged him interest and he should return it, if the lender responds that it was done in a permissible way he is believed without any oath. Some say that it is necessary to specify how it was done permissibly.<ref>Taz 168:36</ref> | #If the borrower claims that his lender charged him interest and he should return it, if the lender responds that it was done in a permissible way he is believed without any oath. Some say that it is necessary to specify how it was done permissibly.<ref>Taz 168:36</ref> | ||
