Guaranteed Low Prices and Interest: Difference between revisions
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→Purchasing Futures of a Commodity (Poskin Al Hapeirot)
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# When buying a future of a commodity the seller must provide the buyer with the quantity specified irrelevant of the price change or if his wares of the commodity spoiled. That isn't considered interest since it isn't clear which commodity was sold to the buyer from the beginning.<ref>Tosfot b"m 64b s.v. hay, Rashba 64a s.v. haylech, Taz 173:18, Chelkat Binyamin 173:146. Tosfot 64b asks what is the difference between buying a barrel of wine which is problematic for interest and pesika? Tosfot explains that in pesika the seller takes all responsibility if it goes down or spoils. Since it wan’t specified which fruit he'd provide it doesn’t look like ribbit, while for a barrel of wine it looks like ribbit since the seller specifies which one.</ref> However, when the seller says he is buying specifically the wine that the seller owns then there's a greater concern of interest because if it spoils and yet the seller delivers good wine it seems that the buyer is benefiting because of his advanced payment. Nonetheless, it is permitted until the time when it is normal for wine to spoil if it was spoiled before it was sold.<ref>Chelkat Binyamin 173:146</ref> | # When buying a future of a commodity the seller must provide the buyer with the quantity specified irrelevant of the price change or if his wares of the commodity spoiled. That isn't considered interest since it isn't clear which commodity was sold to the buyer from the beginning.<ref>Tosfot b"m 64b s.v. hay, Rashba 64a s.v. haylech, Taz 173:18, Chelkat Binyamin 173:146. Tosfot 64b asks what is the difference between buying a barrel of wine which is problematic for interest and pesika? Tosfot explains that in pesika the seller takes all responsibility if it goes down or spoils. Since it wan’t specified which fruit he'd provide it doesn’t look like ribbit, while for a barrel of wine it looks like ribbit since the seller specifies which one.</ref> However, when the seller says he is buying specifically the wine that the seller owns then there's a greater concern of interest because if it spoils and yet the seller delivers good wine it seems that the buyer is benefiting because of his advanced payment. Nonetheless, it is permitted until the time when it is normal for wine to spoil if it was spoiled before it was sold.<ref>Chelkat Binyamin 173:146</ref> | ||
# When the buyer specifies a specific barrel at any time it is problematic and is only permitted if the buyer accepts the fact that if the price increases he will receive less commodity than originally specified.<ref>Gemara Bava Metsia 64a, Shulchan Aruch Y.D. 173:13, Chelkat Binyamin 173:146</ref> It is forbidden for the seller to accept the responsibility for the change in price.<ref>Shulchan Aruch Y.D. 173:13, Shach 173:24, Taz 173:17. Netivot Moshe on Taz 173:17 explains that essentially the Shach and Taz forbid the buyer to accept responsibility for the change in price and say that they're in disagreement with the Drisha who allowed this. However, the Netivot Moshe argues that the Drisha only allowed the buyer to accept responsibility for the change in price if the seller accepts another responsibility such as if it spoils. Chavot Daat 173:18 holds it is forbidden even in such a case.</ref> | # When the buyer specifies a specific barrel at any time it is problematic and is only permitted if the buyer accepts the fact that if the price increases he will receive less commodity than originally specified.<ref>Gemara Bava Metsia 64a, Shulchan Aruch Y.D. 173:13, Chelkat Binyamin 173:146</ref> It is forbidden for the seller to accept the responsibility for the change in price.<ref>Shulchan Aruch Y.D. 173:13, Shach 173:24, Taz 173:17. Netivot Moshe on Taz 173:17 explains that essentially the Shach and Taz forbid the buyer to accept responsibility for the change in price and say that they're in disagreement with the Drisha who allowed this. However, the Netivot Moshe argues that the Drisha only allowed the buyer to accept responsibility for the change in price if the seller accepts another responsibility such as if it spoils. Chavot Daat 173:18 holds it is forbidden even in such a case.</ref> | ||
===Yesh Lo=== | |||
# If a seller has the entire volume of the commodity that he is selling he can sell it with a down payment and deliver later and even offer a discounted price. | |||
# If the seller has the commodity but it isn't fully processed as long as it is only one or two steps away from being processed it is considered like he has the commodity.<ref>Rav in Bava Metsia 74a, Tur and Shulchan Aruch Y.D. 175:4</ref> | |||
# Pesika with Yesh Lo one can even charge a price that is evidently cheaper for the early payment, however, when it isn't completely Yesh Lo but the item is almost ready one do pesika but only at the fair price at the time of the sale.<ref>Ri (Tosfot b"m 63b s.v. vamar), Shach 175:7, Chelkat Binyamin 175:39</ref> Some allow charging a cheaper price with Yesh Lo even if it isn't ready as long as it is only one or two steps away from being processed.<ref>Rashi 72b s.v. posek, Gra 175:5</ref> | |||
===Yatza Hashaar=== | ===Yatza Hashaar=== | ||
# According to Ashkenazim if the price generally doesn't change for a few days then it is considered an established price. According to Sephardim | # Once there is an established price there is no prohibition to pay now for future delivery of a commodity since it is like a sale.<ref>The Gemara Bava Metsia 63b explains that once there is a fixed price in the market it is permitted since it is not considered a benefit to the buyer as he could have bought it at that time. Also, since there's a marketplace price it is reasonably possible for the supplier to buy it and in which case there is no interest because it is simply a sale. In essence it is like the leniency of Yesh Lo (Rashi 63b s.v. itnihu, 72b s.v. ein lavin).</ref> According to Ashkenazim, if the price generally doesn't change for a few days then it is considered an established price. According to Sephardim, if the price generally doesn't change for two to three months then it is considered an established price.<ref>Chelket Binyamin 175:4-5. Rabbi Yochanan in Gemara Bava Metsia 72b states that the establishment of the price of the city marketplace is insufficient, it needs to be established in the great metropolis central markets. However, Rava on 63b according to Tosfot 63b s.v uposkim thinks that a city marketplace price is sufficient. Rif 34b thinks that Rava agrees with Rabbi Yochanan as does the Rambam Malveh Vloveh 9:4. However, the Rosh b"m 5:7 and Tur 175:1 are lenient like Tosfot. Shulchan Aruch follows the Rif and Rambam, while the Rama follows the Tosfot and Rosh.</ref> | ||
# A price is considered established even if there's a range of prices as long as it is reasonable that it is possible to be able to get the item in local stores at the price that they used for the futures sale (pesika).<ref>Chelket Binyamin 175:7</ref> | # A price is considered established even if there's a range of prices as long as it is reasonable that it is possible to be able to get the item in local stores at the price that they used for the futures sale (pesika).<ref>Chelket Binyamin 175:7</ref> | ||
# Pesika is only permitted when the price in the market is established for the quantity that one is purchasing. However, if the | # Pesika is only permitted when the price in the market is established for the quantity that one is purchasing. However, if the price is set for buying in bulk one can't use that when buying a future of individual items.<ref>Chavot Yair 189, Pitchei Teshuva 175:1, Chelket Binyamin 175:12. Even though the Chavot Yair writes that this is applicable to Yesh Lo as well, see the [https://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=849&st=&pgnum=212 Yagel Yakov 175] who questions this based on Shach 175:7. He answers based on the Peni Yehoshua b"m 63a s.v. Bpirush Rashi s.v. Yesh Lo that there's an idea of forbidden changing the price when there's yesh lo if it is intentionally a delayed sale. Peni Yehoshua himself explains that Rashi thinks one can't charge a cheaper price even though it is yesh lo if it was bought with a loan and not originally cash.</ref> | ||
# Pesika is permitted if it is done for a Talmid Chacham and it is evident that the money isn't needed by the supplier and the purchaser could have asked for it as a favor each time and instead it was done up front for convenience then it is permitted since it isn't for the time-value of money.<Ref>Chavot Yair 189, Pitchei Teshuva 175:2, Chelkat Binyamin 175:12</ref> | # Pesika is permitted if it is done for a Talmid Chacham and it is evident that the money isn't needed by the supplier and the purchaser could have asked for it as a favor each time and instead it was done up front for convenience then it is permitted since it isn't for the time-value of money.<Ref>Chavot Yair 189, Pitchei Teshuva 175:2, Chelkat Binyamin 175:12</ref> | ||
#Some say that if the item is readily available in stores, such as fruit or vegetables that are in season, silverware, kitchen ware etc, it is considered Yatza Hashaar even though the price fluctuates.<ref>Shevet Halevi 3:109 holds that the dollar in Israel is considered like peirot but still is permitted to be borrowed because it is like Yatza Hashaar since it is accessible anywhere. In his opinion anything which is accessible anywhere is considered Yatza Hashaar even if the price fluctuates. Torat Ribbit 10:4 applies the Shevet Halevi who was discussing seah bseah to the laws of poskin al hapeirot.</ref> This opinion is contested.<ref> Torat Ribbit 19:5 quotes many poskim who argue with the Shevet Halevi including the Brit Yehuda ch. 18 fnt. 15, 20:13, Kitzur Dinei Ribbit of Rav Shternbuch 3:2, 4:6, and Klala Dribita Intro n. 5.</ref> | #Some say that if the item is readily available in stores, such as fruit or vegetables that are in season, silverware, kitchen ware etc, it is considered Yatza Hashaar even though the price fluctuates.<ref>Shevet Halevi 3:109 holds that the dollar in Israel is considered like peirot but still is permitted to be borrowed because it is like Yatza Hashaar since it is accessible anywhere. In his opinion anything which is accessible anywhere is considered Yatza Hashaar even if the price fluctuates. Torat Ribbit 10:4 applies the Shevet Halevi who was discussing seah bseah to the laws of poskin al hapeirot.</ref> This opinion is contested.<ref> Torat Ribbit 19:5 quotes many poskim who argue with the Shevet Halevi including the Brit Yehuda ch. 18 fnt. 15, 20:13, Kitzur Dinei Ribbit of Rav Shternbuch 3:2, 4:6, and Klala Dribita Intro n. 5.</ref> | ||
# Yatza Hashaar only applies if the specific item being bought has an established price and not if there's a similar product or raw material which is made into the product with an established price.<ref>Gemara Bava Metsia 72b, Rambam Malveh Vloveh 9:4, Shulchan Aruch Y.D. 175:2-3. What emerges from the Maggid Mishna Malveh Vloveh 9:4 is that for old grain and new grain that have separate prices and the price of the old grain is established, Rashi allows stipulating for old grain while the Rambam doesn't allow until it is a uniform fixed price for old and new grain. Also, if there's low quality mixed grains and pure grain and the pure grain has a fixed price one can still stipulate for the more expensive price before there's an established price.</ref> | |||
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