Guaranteed Low Prices and Interest: Difference between revisions
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===Payments in Advance=== | ===Payments in Advance=== | ||
#Generally it is forbidden to sell something for cheaper when the buyer pays in advance.<ref>Shulchan Aruch Y.D. 173:7</ref> | #Generally it is forbidden to sell something for cheaper when the buyer pays in advance.<ref>Shulchan Aruch Y.D. 173:7</ref> | ||
====Yesh Lo==== | |||
# If the seller has the entire quantity of the product that he is selling and the buyer is prepaying it is permitted to charge a lower price for the commodity.<ref>Shulchan Aruch Y.D. 173:7</ref> | # If the seller has the entire quantity of the product that he is selling and the buyer is prepaying it is permitted to charge a lower price for the commodity.<ref>Shulchan Aruch Y.D. 173:7</ref> | ||
====Undetermined Price==== | |||
# If there is no fixed price in the market for an item it is permitted to pay for it in advance and have it delivered later.<ref>Gemara Bava Metsia 65a, Tosfot b"m 63b s.v. vamar, Rama 173:7</ref><ref>Rama 173:7 says you can do poskin on parah or talit even ein lo. That’s based on Tosfot 63b s.v. vamar that says if there’s no shuma then we’re not calling it agar natar we’re calling it tarsha. But what about the fact it might go up on its own like poskin al hapeirot? | # If there is no fixed price in the market for an item it is permitted to pay for it in advance and have it delivered later.<ref>Gemara Bava Metsia 65a, Tosfot b"m 63b s.v. vamar, Rama 173:7</ref><ref>Rama 173:7 says you can do poskin on parah or talit even ein lo. That’s based on Tosfot 63b s.v. vamar that says if there’s no shuma then we’re not calling it agar natar we’re calling it tarsha. But what about the fact it might go up on its own like poskin al hapeirot? | ||
* Bear Hagolah 173:18 and Tiferet Lmoshe on Shach 173:18 answer that fruit will have a market price if not now then at some later point, but a cow will never. Bear Hagolah and Tiferet Lmoshe are slightly different. Bear Hagolah says that there's no concern it'll go up in price because the seller can give the buyer a slightly cheaper cow. Chelkat Binyamin fnt. 173:349 thinks that this reasoning of the Bear Hagolah isn't precise. However, the Tiferet Lmoshe says that there's no concern it'll go up in price since the price isn't establish it never appears as interest. Chida in Birkei Yosef 173 sides with the Bear Hagolah. This approach is supported by many achronim including Shaar Deah 8, Chachmat Adam 139:4, Or Same'ach b"m 64a s.v. bs"a, Avnei Nezer YD 210:4, and Bet Meir on Taz 173:12 cited by Mesivta Yalkut Biurim b"m 63b p. 60. | * Bear Hagolah 173:18 and Tiferet Lmoshe on Shach 173:18 answer that fruit will have a market price if not now then at some later point, but a cow will never. Bear Hagolah and Tiferet Lmoshe are slightly different. Bear Hagolah says that there's no concern it'll go up in price because the seller can give the buyer a slightly cheaper cow. Chelkat Binyamin fnt. 173:349 thinks that this reasoning of the Bear Hagolah isn't precise. However, the Tiferet Lmoshe says that there's no concern it'll go up in price since the price isn't establish it never appears as interest. Chida in Birkei Yosef 173 sides with the Bear Hagolah. This approach is supported by many achronim including Shaar Deah 8, Chachmat Adam 139:4, Or Same'ach b"m 64a s.v. bs"a, Avnei Nezer YD 210:4, and Bet Meir on Taz 173:12 cited by Mesivta Yalkut Biurim b"m 63b p. 60. | ||
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* Taz 173:12 argues on rama and says its only if it didn’t go up. | * Taz 173:12 argues on rama and says its only if it didn’t go up. | ||
* Chavot Daat 173:11 there’s no shiybud haguf here if you give them a specific item, but there is for the general fruit which you can give them any fruit. | * Chavot Daat 173:11 there’s no shiybud haguf here if you give them a specific item, but there is for the general fruit which you can give them any fruit. | ||
* Rav Chaim (on shas n. 75 cited by Mesivta Yalkut Mefarshim b"m 63b p. 60) explains that once the commodity is promised to the supplied even though he doesn't own it it is partially yesh lo and we're not concerned about the price fluctuation. | * Rav Chaim Soloveitchik (on shas n. 75 cited by Mesivta Yalkut Mefarshim b"m 63b p. 60) explains that once the commodity is promised to the supplied even though he doesn't own it it is partially yesh lo and we're not concerned about the price fluctuation. | ||
* Chelkat Binyamin 173:108 concludes that one can be lenient like the Bear Hagolah's approach and generally give a prepayment to receive more if the price of the item isn't readily determined and isn't going to become readily determined by people.</ref> Even so if the seller specifies that if you pay in advance there is one price and a higher price when buying later it is forbidden.<ref>Rama 173:7</ref> Additionally, if the price difference clearly indicates that it is because of interest it is problematic. The amount that is considered a small amount and not indicative of interest depends on the type of merchandise and the market. If it frequently is on sale then having a prepayment for that sale price is permitted since it doesn't look like there's a cheaper early price because of interest.<ref>Chelkat Binyamin 173:110</ref> | * Chelkat Binyamin 173:108 concludes that one can be lenient like the Bear Hagolah's approach and generally give a prepayment to receive more if the price of the item isn't readily determined and isn't going to become readily determined by people.</ref> Even so if the seller specifies that if you pay in advance there is one price and a higher price when buying later it is forbidden.<ref>Rama 173:7</ref> Additionally, if the price difference clearly indicates that it is because of interest it is problematic. The amount that is considered a small amount and not indicative of interest depends on the type of merchandise and the market. If it frequently is on sale then having a prepayment for that sale price is permitted since it doesn't look like there's a cheaper early price because of interest.<ref>Chelkat Binyamin 173:110</ref> | ||
====Subterfuges==== | |||
# It is forbidden for the perspective lender to counter the request of a loan with a subterfuge of having the lender borrow a commodity to then resell it to the lender for a cheaper price. Since the borrower originally requested a loan the borrower may not sell the commodity for a cheaper price when when the price is unclear in the marketplace.<ref>Taz 163:6</ref> | # It is forbidden for the perspective lender to counter the request of a loan with a subterfuge of having the lender borrow a commodity to then resell it to the lender for a cheaper price. Since the borrower originally requested a loan the borrower may not sell the commodity for a cheaper price when when the price is unclear in the marketplace.<ref>Taz 163:6</ref> | ||
====Yesh Lo when the Item Naturally Matures==== | |||
# If someone buys a certain amount of quantity of a commodity and it will mature naturally such as if someone bought gourds that were growing it is permitted for him to pay in advance even though when the gourds mature they would be more expensive.<ref>Bava Metsia 64a, Shulchan Aruch Y.D. 173:8</ref> The seller should then make sure to give him from the crop that he had when they arranged the sale.<ref>Hagahot Mordechai, Shach, and Taz. Chelkat Binyamin 173:112 writes that the Hagahot Mordechai doesn't mean that it is necessary to designate which very specific gourds he is going to sell, it is just necessary to say from his current crop he is going to sell and not going to buy others.</ref> As to the details of responsibility and insurance see footnote.<ref>Chelkat Binyamin 173:111 describes that most poskim hold that the mechanism here is a sale and as such it isn't the responsibility of the seller to buy others from the market if these ones spoil. If they were to do that it would be like poskin, stipulating to buy a future of a commodity, which is only permitted when the seller owns the product which isn't the case here. However, in the Biurim he writes that most rishonim indicate that even using the mechanism of pesika to have the seller responsible to ensure the commodity even if he has to buy more from the market. He says that one can rely on this lenient view.</ref> | # If someone buys a certain amount of quantity of a commodity and it will mature naturally such as if someone bought gourds that were growing it is permitted for him to pay in advance even though when the gourds mature they would be more expensive.<ref>Bava Metsia 64a, Shulchan Aruch Y.D. 173:8</ref> The seller should then make sure to give him from the crop that he had when they arranged the sale.<ref>Hagahot Mordechai, Shach, and Taz. Chelkat Binyamin 173:112 writes that the Hagahot Mordechai doesn't mean that it is necessary to designate which very specific gourds he is going to sell, it is just necessary to say from his current crop he is going to sell and not going to buy others.</ref> As to the details of responsibility and insurance see footnote.<ref>Chelkat Binyamin 173:111 describes that most poskim hold that the mechanism here is a sale and as such it isn't the responsibility of the seller to buy others from the market if these ones spoil. If they were to do that it would be like poskin, stipulating to buy a future of a commodity, which is only permitted when the seller owns the product which isn't the case here. However, in the Biurim he writes that most rishonim indicate that even using the mechanism of pesika to have the seller responsible to ensure the commodity even if he has to buy more from the market. He says that one can rely on this lenient view.</ref> | ||
