Guaranteed Low Prices and Interest: Difference between revisions
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→Buying on Credit when the Price is Unclear
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#Generally it is forbidden to sell something for cheaper when the buyer pays in advance.<ref>Shulchan Aruch Y.D. 173:7</ref> | #Generally it is forbidden to sell something for cheaper when the buyer pays in advance.<ref>Shulchan Aruch Y.D. 173:7</ref> | ||
# If the seller has the entire quantity of the product that he is selling and the buyer is prepaying it is permitted to charge a lower price for the commodity.<ref>Shulchan Aruch Y.D. 173:7</ref> | # If the seller has the entire quantity of the product that he is selling and the buyer is prepaying it is permitted to charge a lower price for the commodity.<ref>Shulchan Aruch Y.D. 173:7</ref> | ||
# If there is no fixed price in the market for an item it is permitted to pay for it in advance and have it delivered later.<ref>Gemara Bava Metsia 65a, Tosfot 63b, Rama 173:7</ref><ref>Rama 173:7 says you can do poskin on parah or talit even ein lo. That’s based on Tosfot 63b s.v. vamar that says if there’s no shuma then we’re not calling it agar natar we’re calling it tarsha. But what about the fact it might go up on its own like poskin al hapeirot? | # If there is no fixed price in the market for an item it is permitted to pay for it in advance and have it delivered later.<ref>Gemara Bava Metsia 65a, Tosfot b"m 63b s.v. vamar, Rama 173:7</ref><ref>Rama 173:7 says you can do poskin on parah or talit even ein lo. That’s based on Tosfot 63b s.v. vamar that says if there’s no shuma then we’re not calling it agar natar we’re calling it tarsha. But what about the fact it might go up on its own like poskin al hapeirot? | ||
* Bear Hagolah 173:18 and Tiferet Lmoshe on Shach 173:18 answer that fruit will have a market price if not now then at some later point, but a cow will never. Bear Hagolah and Tiferet Lmoshe are slightly different. Bear Hagolah says that there's no concern it'll go up in price because the seller can give the buyer a slightly cheaper cow. However, the Tiferet Lmoshe says that there's no concern it'll go up in price since the price isn't establish it never appears as interest. Chida in Birkei Yosef 173 sides with the Bear Hagolah. This approach is supported by many achronim including Shaar Deah 8, Chachmat Adam 139:4, Or Same'ach b"m 64a s.v. bs"a, Avnei Nezer YD 210:4, and Bet Meir on Taz 173:12 cited by Mesivta Yalkut Biurim b"m 63b p. 60. | * Bear Hagolah 173:18 and Tiferet Lmoshe on Shach 173:18 answer that fruit will have a market price if not now then at some later point, but a cow will never. Bear Hagolah and Tiferet Lmoshe are slightly different. Bear Hagolah says that there's no concern it'll go up in price because the seller can give the buyer a slightly cheaper cow. Chelkat Binyamin fnt. 173:349 thinks that this reasoning of the Bear Hagolah isn't precise. However, the Tiferet Lmoshe says that there's no concern it'll go up in price since the price isn't establish it never appears as interest. Chida in Birkei Yosef 173 sides with the Bear Hagolah. This approach is supported by many achronim including Shaar Deah 8, Chachmat Adam 139:4, Or Same'ach b"m 64a s.v. bs"a, Avnei Nezer YD 210:4, and Bet Meir on Taz 173:12 cited by Mesivta Yalkut Biurim b"m 63b p. 60. | ||
* Shach 173:17 answers that parah is yatzah shaar in that the factors necessary to determine its price like per pound is shaar kavuah | * Shach 173:17 answers that parah is yatzah shaar in that the factors necessary to determine its price like per pound is shaar kavuah | ||
* Taz 173:12 argues on rama and says its only if it didn’t go up. | * Taz 173:12 argues on rama and says its only if it didn’t go up. | ||
* Chavot Daat 173:11 there’s no shiybud haguf here if you give them a specific item, but there is for the general fruit which you can give them any fruit. | * Chavot Daat 173:11 there’s no shiybud haguf here if you give them a specific item, but there is for the general fruit which you can give them any fruit. | ||
* Rav Chaim (on shas n. 75 cited by Mesivta Yalkut Mefarshim b"m 63b p. 60 explains that once the commodity is promised to the supplied even though he doesn't own it it is partially yesh lo and we're not concerned about the price fluctuation.</ref> | * Rav Chaim (on shas n. 75 cited by Mesivta Yalkut Mefarshim b"m 63b p. 60) explains that once the commodity is promised to the supplied even though he doesn't own it it is partially yesh lo and we're not concerned about the price fluctuation. | ||
* Chelkat Binyamin 173:108 concludes that one can be lenient like the Bear Hagolah's approach and generally give a prepayment to receive more if the price of the item isn't readily determined and isn't going to become readily determined by people.</ref> | |||
# It is forbidden for the perspective lender to counter the request of a loan with a subterfuge of having the lender borrow a commodity to then resell it to the lender for a cheaper price. Since the borrower originally requested a loan the borrower may not sell the commodity for a cheaper price when when the price is unclear in the marketplace.<ref>Taz 163:6</ref> | # It is forbidden for the perspective lender to counter the request of a loan with a subterfuge of having the lender borrow a commodity to then resell it to the lender for a cheaper price. Since the borrower originally requested a loan the borrower may not sell the commodity for a cheaper price when when the price is unclear in the marketplace.<ref>Taz 163:6</ref> | ||
# If the buyer's intention is purely to buy the item on credit in order to sell it immediately for a cheaper value that is considered a prohibited since it as though the cheaper price is stipulated as the value of the loan and yet he agreed to repay a higher amount.<ref>The Ritva b"m 65a cited by Bedek Habayit 173 writes that if someone purchases a commodity on credit it is permitted if the price isn't clear. However, if the buyer immediately sells it for less it shows that the loan obligated him to pay more than the value of the item and is interest. Chatom Sofer YD 137 follows the Ritva and writes that one can't bring a proof from Shulchan Aruch 163:3 or Taz 163:6 who imply otherwise since they didn't have the Ritva.</ref> | # If the buyer's intention is purely to buy the item on credit in order to sell it immediately for a cheaper value that is considered a prohibited since it as though the cheaper price is stipulated as the value of the loan and yet he agreed to repay a higher amount.<ref>The Ritva b"m 65a cited by Bedek Habayit 173 writes that if someone purchases a commodity on credit it is permitted if the price isn't clear. However, if the buyer immediately sells it for less it shows that the loan obligated him to pay more than the value of the item and is interest. Chatom Sofer YD 137 follows the Ritva and writes that one can't bring a proof from Shulchan Aruch 163:3 or Taz 163:6 who imply otherwise since they didn't have the Ritva.</ref> | ||
