Guaranteed Low Prices and Interest: Difference between revisions
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→Buying on Credit when the Price is Unclear
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# Using advanced discounted payments for a yeshiva or non-profit tzedaka organization is permitted since this is only a rabbinic form of interest.<ref>[https://www.yutorah.org/sidebar/lecture.cfm/900500/rabbi-hershel-schachter/dinei-ribbis/ Rav Hershel Schachter (Dinei Ribbis approx min 40)]</ref> | # Using advanced discounted payments for a yeshiva or non-profit tzedaka organization is permitted since this is only a rabbinic form of interest.<ref>[https://www.yutorah.org/sidebar/lecture.cfm/900500/rabbi-hershel-schachter/dinei-ribbis/ Rav Hershel Schachter (Dinei Ribbis approx min 40)]</ref> | ||
===Buying on Credit when the Price is Unclear=== | ===Buying on Credit when the Price is Unclear=== | ||
'''''Tarsha''''' | '''''Tarsha - Buying on Credit''''' | ||
# If there is no fixed price in the market for an item it is permitted to pay for it in advance and have it delivered later.<ref>Gemara Bava Metsia 65a, | #Generally it is forbidden to charge someone extra for buying on credit.<ref>Gemara Bava Metsia 65a, Shulchan Aruch Y.D. 173:1</ref> | ||
# If an item doesn't have a fixed price then one can charge more for it when the buyer pays later than the delivery date. The reason is that since there's no established price the seller can set the price of the item at the higher price that the buyer will pay later. However, if there is a market price that is known or one specifies a price for the item if one wanted to pay now and another price for buying on credit it is forbidden. Therefore, having a two tiered pricing system for buying regularly and buying on credit is interest and forbidden between two Jews.<ref>Shulchan Aruch Y.D. 173:1</ref> | |||
##Even when there's no clear price, the market hasn't established a price, and the seller didn't specify a price, the seller can only increase the price a little. There is a dispute as to this amount: | |||
## Some say that the seller can only raise it to an amount that one could expect the price to rise by the time of the payment date. For example, if it is known that in the rainy season the price of umbrellas rise, and the price of umbrellas weren't fixed in the market, then one could have someone pay the price of the rainy season even though the umbrellas were bought in the dry season and they were delivered then. One couldn't charge a higher rate that wouldn't be expected to be the price of the market. We are strict for this opinion.<ref>Baal Hatrumot 46:4:30 citing Ramban 65a s.v. amar, Rabbi Akiva Eiger 173:1, Shach 173:5, Chelkat Binyamin 173:28</ref> | |||
## An alternate opinion to the first one is that the seller can charge up to the price that the market sometimes surges to when some event occurs if that event happens on a frequent basis.<ref>Chelkat Binyamin 173:28 citing the Sama 173:30 based on Rama 173:1</ref> | |||
## Some say that the seller can raise it up to 20 percent above the range of prices in the market. If this is a stringency we follow this opinion.<ref>Chelkat Binyamin 173:28</ref> | |||
'''''Paying in Advance''''' | |||
#Generally it is forbidden to sell something for cheaper when the buyer pays in advance.<ref>Shulchan Aruch Y.D. 173:7</ref> | |||
# If there is no fixed price in the market for an item it is permitted to pay for it in advance and have it delivered later.<ref>Gemara Bava Metsia 65a, Tosfot 63b, Rama 173:7</ref> | |||
# It is forbidden for the perspective lender to counter the request of a loan with a subterfuge of having the lender borrow a commodity to then resell it to the lender for a cheaper price. Since the borrower originally requested a loan the borrower may not sell the commodity for a cheaper price when when the price is unclear in the marketplace.<ref>Taz 163:6</ref> | # It is forbidden for the perspective lender to counter the request of a loan with a subterfuge of having the lender borrow a commodity to then resell it to the lender for a cheaper price. Since the borrower originally requested a loan the borrower may not sell the commodity for a cheaper price when when the price is unclear in the marketplace.<ref>Taz 163:6</ref> | ||
# If the buyer's intention is purely to buy the item on credit in order to sell it immediately for a cheaper value that is considered a prohibited since it as though the cheaper price is stipulated as the value of the loan and yet he agreed to repay a higher amount.<ref>The Ritva 65a cited by Bedek Habayit 173 writes that if someone purchases a commodity on credit it is permitted if the price isn't clear. However, if the buyer immediately sells it for less it shows that the loan obligated him to pay more than the value of the item and is interest. Chatom Sofer YD 137 follows the Ritva and writes that one can't bring a proof from Shulchan Aruch 163:3 or Taz 163:6 who imply otherwise since they didn't have the Ritva.</ref> | # If the buyer's intention is purely to buy the item on credit in order to sell it immediately for a cheaper value that is considered a prohibited since it as though the cheaper price is stipulated as the value of the loan and yet he agreed to repay a higher amount.<ref>The Ritva b"m 65a cited by Bedek Habayit 173 writes that if someone purchases a commodity on credit it is permitted if the price isn't clear. However, if the buyer immediately sells it for less it shows that the loan obligated him to pay more than the value of the item and is interest. Chatom Sofer YD 137 follows the Ritva and writes that one can't bring a proof from Shulchan Aruch 163:3 or Taz 163:6 who imply otherwise since they didn't have the Ritva.</ref> | ||
This section isn't finished. | This section isn't finished. | ||
#Downpayments and early bird specials. 63b rav nachman says you can’t do an early bird special unless it is yesh lo. 65a he says you can do a downpayment and get the item now and pay more later as long as you don’t specify the price and tosfot 65b and 63b adds that if its price is evident in the market it is forbidden. | #Downpayments and early bird specials. 63b rav nachman says you can’t do an early bird special unless it is yesh lo. 65a he says you can do a downpayment and get the item now and pay more later as long as you don’t specify the price and tosfot 65b and 63b adds that if its price is evident in the market it is forbidden. | ||
