Guaranteed Low Prices and Interest: Difference between revisions
From Halachipedia
→Buying on Credit when the Price is Unclear
| Line 5: | Line 5: | ||
# It is forbidden to pay for a sefer in advance before the printer published the sefer.<ref>[https://www.yutorah.org/sidebar/lecture.cfm/900500/rabbi-hershel-schachter/dinei-ribbis/ Rav Hershel Schachter (Dinei Ribbis approx min 40)]</ref> | # It is forbidden to pay for a sefer in advance before the printer published the sefer.<ref>[https://www.yutorah.org/sidebar/lecture.cfm/900500/rabbi-hershel-schachter/dinei-ribbis/ Rav Hershel Schachter (Dinei Ribbis approx min 40)]</ref> | ||
# Using advanced discounted payments for a yeshiva or non-profit tzedaka organization is permitted since this is only a rabbinic form of interest.<ref>[https://www.yutorah.org/sidebar/lecture.cfm/900500/rabbi-hershel-schachter/dinei-ribbis/ Rav Hershel Schachter (Dinei Ribbis approx min 40)]</ref> | # Using advanced discounted payments for a yeshiva or non-profit tzedaka organization is permitted since this is only a rabbinic form of interest.<ref>[https://www.yutorah.org/sidebar/lecture.cfm/900500/rabbi-hershel-schachter/dinei-ribbis/ Rav Hershel Schachter (Dinei Ribbis approx min 40)]</ref> | ||
===Buying on Credit | ===Buying on Credit=== | ||
#Generally it is forbidden<ref>Rambam Malveh Vloveh 8:1 clarifies that it is only rabbinically forbidden to charge more for buying on credit since it is presented as a sale not a loan. Shach 173:4 agrees.</ref> to charge someone extra for buying on credit.<ref>Gemara Bava Metsia 65a, Shulchan Aruch Y.D. 173:1</ref> | #Generally it is forbidden<ref>Rambam Malveh Vloveh 8:1 clarifies that it is only rabbinically forbidden to charge more for buying on credit since it is presented as a sale not a loan. Shach 173:4 agrees.</ref> to charge someone extra for buying on credit.<ref>Gemara Bava Metsia 65a, Shulchan Aruch Y.D. 173:1</ref> | ||
# If an item doesn't have a fixed price then one can charge more for it when the buyer pays later than the delivery date. The reason is that since there's no established price the seller can set the price of the item at the higher price that the buyer will pay later. However, if there is a market price that is known<ref>Tosfot b"m 63b, Rosh b"m 5:22</ref> or the seller specifies a price for the item if one wanted to pay now and another price for buying on credit it is forbidden.<ref>Gemara Bava Metsia 65a</ref> Therefore, having a two tiered pricing system for buying regularly and buying on credit is interest and forbidden between two Jews.<ref>Shulchan Aruch Y.D. 173:1</ref> | # If an item doesn't have a fixed price then one can charge more for it when the buyer pays later than the delivery date. The reason is that since there's no established price the seller can set the price of the item at the higher price that the buyer will pay later. However, if there is a market price that is known<ref>Tosfot b"m 63b, Rosh b"m 5:22</ref> or the seller specifies a price for the item if one wanted to pay now and another price for buying on credit it is forbidden.<ref>Gemara Bava Metsia 65a</ref> Therefore, having a two tiered pricing system for buying regularly and buying on credit is interest and forbidden between two Jews.<ref>Shulchan Aruch Y.D. 173:1</ref> | ||
| Line 13: | Line 12: | ||
## An alternate opinion to the first one is that the seller can charge up to the price that the market sometimes surges to when some event occurs if that event happens on a frequent basis.<ref>Chelkat Binyamin 173:28 citing the Sama 173:30 based on Rama 173:1</ref> | ## An alternate opinion to the first one is that the seller can charge up to the price that the market sometimes surges to when some event occurs if that event happens on a frequent basis.<ref>Chelkat Binyamin 173:28 citing the Sama 173:30 based on Rama 173:1</ref> | ||
## Some say that the seller can raise it up to 20 percent above the range of prices in the market. If this is a stringency we follow this opinion.<ref>Chelkat Binyamin 173:28</ref> | ## Some say that the seller can raise it up to 20 percent above the range of prices in the market. If this is a stringency we follow this opinion.<ref>Chelkat Binyamin 173:28</ref> | ||
# If something doesn't have a clear price and the market price fluctuates frequently even if there is currently a market price it is considered eligible for the leniency of charging more for buying on credit as long as the seller doesn't specify a price for purchasing it up front.<ref>Chavot Daat 173:3, Chelkat Binyamin 173:31</ref> | # If something doesn't have a clear price and the market price fluctuates frequently even if there is currently a market price it is considered eligible for the leniency of charging more for buying on credit as long as the seller doesn't specify a price for purchasing it up front.<ref>Chavot Daat 173:3, Chelkat Binyamin 173:31</ref> | ||
' | # If the price isn't clear and sometimes is sold for one price when sold in the market and another price when sold at a private home, it is permitted to charge a higher price when selling it at the private home even if the buyer is buying on credit.<ref>Shulchan Aruch Y.D. 173:2</ref> | ||
===Payments in Advance=== | |||
#Generally it is forbidden to sell something for cheaper when the buyer pays in advance.<ref>Shulchan Aruch Y.D. 173:7</ref> | #Generally it is forbidden to sell something for cheaper when the buyer pays in advance.<ref>Shulchan Aruch Y.D. 173:7</ref> | ||
# If the seller has the entire quantity of the product that he is selling and the buyer is prepaying it is permitted to charge a lower price for the commodity.<ref>Shulchan Aruch Y.D. 173:7</ref> | # If the seller has the entire quantity of the product that he is selling and the buyer is prepaying it is permitted to charge a lower price for the commodity.<ref>Shulchan Aruch Y.D. 173:7</ref> | ||
| Line 25: | Line 25: | ||
* Chelkat Binyamin 173:108 concludes that one can be lenient like the Bear Hagolah's approach and generally give a prepayment to receive more if the price of the item isn't readily determined and isn't going to become readily determined by people.</ref> Even so if the seller specifies that if you pay in advance there is one price and a higher price when buying later it is forbidden.<ref>Rama 173:7</ref> Additionally, if the price difference clearly indicates that it is because of interest it is problematic. The amount that is considered a small amount and not indicative of interest depends on the type of merchandise and the market. If it frequently is on sale then having a prepayment for that sale price is permitted since it doesn't look like there's a cheaper early price because of interest.<ref>Chelkat Binyamin 173:110</ref> | * Chelkat Binyamin 173:108 concludes that one can be lenient like the Bear Hagolah's approach and generally give a prepayment to receive more if the price of the item isn't readily determined and isn't going to become readily determined by people.</ref> Even so if the seller specifies that if you pay in advance there is one price and a higher price when buying later it is forbidden.<ref>Rama 173:7</ref> Additionally, if the price difference clearly indicates that it is because of interest it is problematic. The amount that is considered a small amount and not indicative of interest depends on the type of merchandise and the market. If it frequently is on sale then having a prepayment for that sale price is permitted since it doesn't look like there's a cheaper early price because of interest.<ref>Chelkat Binyamin 173:110</ref> | ||
# It is forbidden for the perspective lender to counter the request of a loan with a subterfuge of having the lender borrow a commodity to then resell it to the lender for a cheaper price. Since the borrower originally requested a loan the borrower may not sell the commodity for a cheaper price when when the price is unclear in the marketplace.<ref>Taz 163:6</ref> | # It is forbidden for the perspective lender to counter the request of a loan with a subterfuge of having the lender borrow a commodity to then resell it to the lender for a cheaper price. Since the borrower originally requested a loan the borrower may not sell the commodity for a cheaper price when when the price is unclear in the marketplace.<ref>Taz 163:6</ref> | ||
# A buyer and seller agreed upon a price for buying on credit and the sale was validated with a complete and formal acquisition. Then they renegotiate that if the buyer pays right away he doesn't have to pay as much that is permitted.<Ref>Shulchan Aruch 173:3</ref> | |||
# If the buyer's intention is purely to buy the item on credit in order to sell it immediately for a cheaper value that is considered a prohibited since it as though the cheaper price is stipulated as the value of the loan and yet he agreed to repay a higher amount.<ref>The Ritva b"m 65a cited by Bedek Habayit 173 writes that if someone purchases a commodity on credit it is permitted if the price isn't clear. However, if the buyer immediately sells it for less it shows that the loan obligated him to pay more than the value of the item and is interest. Chatom Sofer YD 137 follows the Ritva and writes that one can't bring a proof from Shulchan Aruch 163:3 or Taz 163:6 who imply otherwise since they didn't have the Ritva.</ref> | # If the buyer's intention is purely to buy the item on credit in order to sell it immediately for a cheaper value that is considered a prohibited since it as though the cheaper price is stipulated as the value of the loan and yet he agreed to repay a higher amount.<ref>The Ritva b"m 65a cited by Bedek Habayit 173 writes that if someone purchases a commodity on credit it is permitted if the price isn't clear. However, if the buyer immediately sells it for less it shows that the loan obligated him to pay more than the value of the item and is interest. Chatom Sofer YD 137 follows the Ritva and writes that one can't bring a proof from Shulchan Aruch 163:3 or Taz 163:6 who imply otherwise since they didn't have the Ritva.</ref> | ||
==Future Contracts of Commodities== | ==Future Contracts of Commodities== | ||
