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Counting Jewish People: Difference between revisions
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===For a mitzvah=== | ===For a mitzvah=== | ||
# The prohibition applies even when counting for a mitzvah. <ref>Gemara Yoma 22b, Rambam Pirush Mishnayot Yoma 22b, Magan Avraham 156:2, Tzitz Eliezer 7:3(8:2) </ref> | # The prohibition applies even when counting for a mitzvah. <ref>Gemara Yoma 22b, Rambam Pirush Mishnayot Yoma 22b, Magan Avraham 156:2, Tzitz Eliezer 7:3(8:2) </ref> | ||
# The minhag is to allow counting for a mitzvah using the פסוק of Hoshiyah Et Amecha…הושיעה את עמך וברך את נחלתך ורעם ונשאם עד העולם in order to count for a minyan. However, some say that it's only permitted if one only counts in one's head.<Ref>Kitzur S"A 15:3 writes that Minhag Yisrael to quote for a mitzvah purpose using the pasuk of Hoshiyah Et Amecha. Kesot HaShulchan 15:8 quotes the Kitzur S”A. Piskei Teshuvot 156:24 adds that it's also acceptable to use the pasuk VeAni BeRov Chasdecha quoting the Sefer HaOrah LeRashi vol 1 siman 56. Rav Modechai Eliyahu's comments on Kitzur S"A 15:3 writes that even using this pasuk one shouldn't point but count in one's head. Yalkut Yosef (Pesukei DeZimrah 55:2) holds that it's permitted for a mitzvah if one either counts in one's head or if one counts using the pasuk of Hoshiya. Revivot Efraim 4:44(132) quotes an achron who has a safek about this issue. Minchat Asher Parshat Bamidbar (Siman 1:4) tries to explain the Kitzur S"A saying that perhaps when using the pasuk it's not considered counting since one doesn't know which word in the pasuk corresponds to which number other than that the whole pasuk is 10 words. [He prefers this explanation over saying that there's some segulah unique to this pasuk that protects those counted thereby permitting it. Regarding whether this pasuk is unique, see Podeh Et Avraham (Mem #19) who writes that one may use pasuk of VeShinantem and Lekat Kemach HaChadash 55:8 who writes that counting with bracha of Hamotzei is incorrect.]Sh"t Divrei Zev 10:13 writes that it's permitted to count Jews for a minyan. However, Yalkut Yosef (Pesukei DeZimrah, pg 351) argues based on the Sefer Itim (pg 352) who says it is a problem. See Yabea Omer YD 2:16(9). [See Orchot Rabbenu vol 3 pg 89, Or Torah 5766 Elul 136. Shelat Rav pg 167.]</ref> | # The minhag is to allow counting for a mitzvah using the פסוק of Hoshiyah Et Amecha…הושיעה את עמך וברך את נחלתך ורעם ונשאם עד העולם in order to count for a minyan. However, some say that it's only permitted if one only counts in one's head.<Ref>Kitzur S"A 15:3 writes that Minhag Yisrael to quote for a mitzvah purpose using the pasuk of Hoshiyah Et Amecha. Kesot HaShulchan 15:8 quotes the Kitzur S”A. Piskei Teshuvot 156:24 adds that it's also acceptable to use the pasuk VeAni BeRov Chasdecha quoting the Sefer HaOrah LeRashi vol 1 siman 56. Rav Modechai Eliyahu's comments on Kitzur S"A 15:3 writes that even using this pasuk one shouldn't point but count in one's head. Yalkut Yosef ([[Pesukei DeZimrah]] 55:2) holds that it's permitted for a mitzvah if one either counts in one's head or if one counts using the pasuk of Hoshiya. Revivot Efraim 4:44(132) quotes an achron who has a safek about this issue. Minchat Asher Parshat Bamidbar (Siman 1:4) tries to explain the Kitzur S"A saying that perhaps when using the pasuk it's not considered counting since one doesn't know which word in the pasuk corresponds to which number other than that the whole pasuk is 10 words. [He prefers this explanation over saying that there's some segulah unique to this pasuk that protects those counted thereby permitting it. Regarding whether this pasuk is unique, see Podeh Et Avraham (Mem #19) who writes that one may use pasuk of VeShinantem and Lekat Kemach HaChadash 55:8 who writes that counting with bracha of Hamotzei is incorrect.]Sh"t Divrei Zev 10:13 writes that it's permitted to count Jews for a minyan. However, Yalkut Yosef ([[Pesukei DeZimrah]], pg 351) argues based on the Sefer Itim (pg 352) who says it is a problem. See Yabea Omer YD 2:16(9). [See Orchot Rabbenu vol 3 pg 89, Or Torah 5766 Elul 136. Shelat Rav pg 167.]</ref> | ||
===In thought=== | ===In thought=== | ||
# Many poskim permit counting in one’s thought (by looking and counting in one’s head without making any motions) for a mitzvah or any need. <Ref>Yalkut Yosef (Piskei DeZimrah 55 note 2, Sherit Yosef vol 2 pg 93) permits counting for a minyan in one’s mind. Sh"t Tzitz Eliezer 7:3:(7:39), Minchat Asher (Bamidbar 1) in name of the Kaf HaChaim Sofer and Kaf HaChaim Palagi permit. However, Etz Yosef (Yoma 22b; quoted by Piskei Teshuvot 156:24) is strict. </ref> | # Many poskim permit counting in one’s thought (by looking and counting in one’s head without making any motions) for a mitzvah or any need. <Ref>Yalkut Yosef (Piskei DeZimrah 55 note 2, Sherit Yosef vol 2 pg 93) permits counting for a minyan in one’s mind. Sh"t Tzitz Eliezer 7:3:(7:39), Minchat Asher (Bamidbar 1) in name of the Kaf HaChaim Sofer and Kaf HaChaim Palagi permit. However, Etz Yosef (Yoma 22b; quoted by Piskei Teshuvot 156:24) is strict. </ref> | ||
