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Broken Utensils: Difference between revisions
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==Broken vessels nowadays== | ==Broken vessels nowadays== | ||
# Shemirat Shabbat KeHilchata 20:41 writes that if the kli is usually thrown out it’s Muktzeh. He quotes the Mishna Brurah 308:48 who is explaining S”A 308:11. The Mishna Brurah 308:11 is based on Magan Avraham 308:24. Menuchat Ahava Ahava vol 1 chapter 13:37 writes that it also applies if it breaks on [[Shabbat]] and his source was the S”A 308:11 like Mishna Brurah. | # Shemirat Shabbat KeHilchata 20:41 writes that if the kli is usually thrown out it’s Muktzeh. He quotes the Mishna Brurah 308:48 who is explaining S”A 308:11. The Mishna Brurah 308:11 is based on Magan Avraham 308:24. Menuchat Ahava Ahava vol 1 chapter 13:37 writes that it also applies if it breaks on [[Shabbat]] and his source was the S”A 308:11 like Mishna Brurah. | ||
# | # Hagahot Rabbi Akiva Eiger comments on the Magan Avraham that the Rashba learns it’s only if it breaks from before [[Shabbat]] and he disagrees. | ||
# S”A HaRav 308:29 writes this chumra clearly and applies it to whether it breaks before or on [[Shabbat]]. Yalkut Yosef (vol 2 pg 369) quotes the S”A haRav as a yesh mi she’Omer and then says that one should be concerned for this opinion but concludes that this isn’t the place to discuss it at length. Shalmei Yehuda chapter 3 note 24 quotes Rav Binyamin Zilber who holds like the S”A HaRav, | # S”A HaRav 308:29 writes this chumra clearly and applies it to whether it breaks before or on [[Shabbat]]. Yalkut Yosef (vol 2 pg 369) quotes the S”A haRav as a yesh mi she’Omer and then says that one should be concerned for this opinion but concludes that this isn’t the place to discuss it at length. Shalmei Yehuda chapter 3 note 24 quotes Rav Binyamin Zilber who holds like the S”A HaRav, | ||
# However, Shalmei Yehuda on pg 261-2 Rav Pinchas Sheinburg argues on the S”A HaRav and is lenient (his argument is that since there’s still a use nowadays it’s just that sippl are spoiled and use only perfect kelim but if there was a serious need he’d still use the kelim that are broken. Since by definitont here’s a use it’s considered a kli and is not Muktzeh. See there where he asks rhetorically that from the time of Mishna Brurah the times haven’t changed that much and people all of a sudden stopped using the broken kelim to cover stuff.) Similarly, the Chut HaSheni (Rav Nassim Karlitz; vol 3, chapter 51, pg 106) agrees with Rav Sheinburg (however see there where he says that it must be a broken kli that would actually fit as a cover normally and that use isn’t just an excuse to make it non-Muktzeh). | # However, Shalmei Yehuda on pg 261-2 Rav Pinchas Sheinburg argues on the S”A HaRav and is lenient (his argument is that since there’s still a use nowadays it’s just that sippl are spoiled and use only perfect kelim but if there was a serious need he’d still use the kelim that are broken. Since by definitont here’s a use it’s considered a kli and is not Muktzeh. See there where he asks rhetorically that from the time of Mishna Brurah the times haven’t changed that much and people all of a sudden stopped using the broken kelim to cover stuff.) Similarly, the Chut HaSheni (Rav Nassim Karlitz; vol 3, chapter 51, pg 106) agrees with Rav Sheinburg (however see there where he says that it must be a broken kli that would actually fit as a cover normally and that use isn’t just an excuse to make it non-Muktzeh). | ||
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# Magan Avraham explains that Tosfot means that a wet hide is Muktzeh even if it could be mekabel tumah since most people throw it out (or don’t use it at all ) similar to a broken needle which is thrown out ([[Shabbat]] 123a). [See Shitah Mekubeset who says that the girsa of Tosfot Zevachim was actually that since it’s uncommon to designate it for sitting it’s still Muktzeh.] | # Magan Avraham explains that Tosfot means that a wet hide is Muktzeh even if it could be mekabel tumah since most people throw it out (or don’t use it at all ) similar to a broken needle which is thrown out ([[Shabbat]] 123a). [See Shitah Mekubeset who says that the girsa of Tosfot Zevachim was actually that since it’s uncommon to designate it for sitting it’s still Muktzeh.] | ||
# Bottom line: If a broken kli is thrown out by most people it’s Muktzeh. | # Bottom line: If a broken kli is thrown out by most people it’s Muktzeh. | ||
# | # Hagahot Rabbi Akiva Eiger 308:24 quotes the Rashba 125 D”H Ha Amar Shmuel who says that really a broken needle is only Muktzeh if it was broken from before [[Shabbat]], otherwise it’s not Muktzeh since it entered [[Shabbat]] as a kli. However, Rabbi Akiva Eiger argues that since if a broken needle was thrown out on [[Shabbat]] it’s Muktzeh and a broken kli that’s thrown out on [[Shabbat]] isn’t Muktzeh it seems that a broken needle is fundamentally worse and even if was broken on [[Shabbat]] it’s Muktzeh. [The Rashba holds that even by broken kelim that are thrown out on [[Shabbat]] are Muktzeh just like a broken needle that’s thrown out on [[Shabbat]].] | ||
## (My question (Ike Sultan) is from the fact that the Magan Avraham asked by there’s a difference between seif 11 and seif 7 and not seif 6 which is the beginning of the topic of broken kelim, rather perhaps the magan Avraham means only to discuss where it broke on [[Shabbat]] itself.) | ## (My question (Ike Sultan) is from the fact that the Magan Avraham asked by there’s a difference between seif 11 and seif 7 and not seif 6 which is the beginning of the topic of broken kelim, rather perhaps the magan Avraham means only to discuss where it broke on [[Shabbat]] itself.) | ||
# Orah VeSimcha 25:8 D”H Aval, Tehila LeDavid 308:17, Badei HaShulchan 109:12 hold like | # Orah VeSimcha 25:8 D”H Aval, Tehila LeDavid 308:17, Badei HaShulchan 109:12 hold like Hagahot Rabbi Akiva Eiger. | ||
## Megilat Sefer (pg 268) D”H Min HaAmur writes that if one rips a plastic bag bag open in a destructive way it’s Muktzeh since it’s usual to throw out. However, Adnei Shlomo (pg 265, 308:204) argues based on the Rashba. the Chut HaSheni (Rav Nassim Karlitz; vol 3, chapter 51, pg 106) also argues that if it was not thrown out before [[Shabbat]] it’s not Muktzeh. [Matnat Yehuda (pg 317) quotes Rav Nassim Karlitz and praises it. ] | ## Megilat Sefer (pg 268) D”H Min HaAmur writes that if one rips a plastic bag bag open in a destructive way it’s Muktzeh since it’s usual to throw out. However, Adnei Shlomo (pg 265, 308:204) argues based on the Rashba. the Chut HaSheni (Rav Nassim Karlitz; vol 3, chapter 51, pg 106) also argues that if it was not thrown out before [[Shabbat]] it’s not Muktzeh. [Matnat Yehuda (pg 317) quotes Rav Nassim Karlitz and praises it. ] | ||
==References== | ==References== | ||
<references/> | <references/> | ||
