Borrowing Commodities: Difference between revisions
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# It is rabbinically forbidden to lend<ref>Rosh respona 108:7 implies that lending commodities isn't forbidden in it of itself but the prohibition is only violated if the lender ends up collecting more than he borrowed. (Chelkat Binyamin (biurim 162:5 s.v. haloveh) rereads the Rosh.) The Ramban Shabbat 148b s.v. ha certainly holds that opinion. However, the Chelkat Binyamin 162:1 learns from Tosfot b"m 75a that it is forbidden even to set up such a transaction even if one never collects any gain. That approach is adopted as the halacha bu Shach 162:13 and Chelket Binyamin.</ref> items for the same quantity of that item.<ref>Shulchan Aruch 160:21. | # It is rabbinically forbidden to lend<ref>Rosh respona 108:7 implies that lending commodities isn't forbidden in it of itself but the prohibition is only violated if the lender ends up collecting more than he borrowed. (Chelkat Binyamin (biurim 162:5 s.v. haloveh) rereads the Rosh.) The Ramban Shabbat 148b s.v. ha certainly holds that opinion. However, the Chelkat Binyamin 162:1 learns from Tosfot b"m 75a that it is forbidden even to set up such a transaction even if one never collects any gain. That approach is adopted as the halacha bu Shach 162:13 and Chelket Binyamin.</ref> items for the same quantity of that item.<ref>Shulchan Aruch 160:21. | ||
Why is it only rabbinic interest to lend commodities? | Why is it only rabbinic interest to lend commodities? | ||
*Rosh responsa 108:6 writes that the reason is that | *Rosh responsa 108:6 writes that the reason is that biblically you can repay the same quantity of a commodity for that commodity and that is biblically required as part of your loan. | ||
*Ritva 60b s.v. vtisbara, Ramban 60b s.v. ulbsof, Ran s.v. ulinyan, Nemukei Yosef s.v. eizhu batar mikara all write that it isn't | *Ritva 60b s.v. vtisbara, Ramban 60b s.v. ulbsof, Ran s.v. ulinyan, Nemukei Yosef s.v. eizhu batar mikara all write that it isn't biblical interest since it isn't clear that a person will gain since the commodity might not go up in price. See also Taz 162:1 andRashi 62b sv bdiynenu safek.</ref> | ||
# It is | # It is biblically forbidden to lend an item for a greater quantity of that item. For example, lending 100 apples for 120 apples is biblical interest.<ref>Devarim 23:20, Shulchan Aruch YD 160:21</ref> | ||
# It is forbidden to lend an item to get back the same type of item. This is called ''Seah B'seah''. For example, lending out a 5 pound bag of flour to get back another bag of flour is forbidden.<ref>Bava Metsia 75a</ref> | # It is forbidden to lend an item to get back the same type of item. This is called ''Seah B'seah''. For example, lending out a 5 pound bag of flour to get back another bag of flour is forbidden.<ref>Bava Metsia 75a</ref> | ||
# This type of rabbinic ribbit is permitted if the borrower has some of the same type of the item he is borrowing. For example, if someone has one egg and wants to borrow five more eggs they can do so since they already have one.<ref>Bava Metsia 75a</ref> | # This type of rabbinic ribbit is permitted if the borrower has some of the same type of the item he is borrowing. For example, if someone has one egg and wants to borrow five more eggs they can do so since they already have one.<ref>Bava Metsia 75a</ref> | ||
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===One Commodity for Another Commodity=== | ===One Commodity for Another Commodity=== | ||
# If one lends one commodity for another commodity of the equivalent value it is forbidden perhaps the value of commodity that needs to be returned will increase in price. This is forbidden even if the borrower has some or all of the quantity of the commodity necessary to repay the loan and it is forbidden even if the marketplace price for the commodity to be returned is fixed.<Ref>The Raavad cited by Baal Hatrumot 46:5:7 and Tur 162:5 explains that the leniencies of seah bseah only apply when one is borrowing one commodity to repay that same commodity. However, if one repays another commodity it is forbidden even if it is yesh lo and yatza hashaar. Shulchan Aruch Y.D. 162:5 codifies the opinion of the Raavad. The Perisha 162:21 explains that when one repays a loan with the same commodity it doesn't appear as interest since the difference in price between the loan and repayment isn't viewed as significant. However, once the repayment is in another commodity it is viewed as interest. Therefore, the leniencies of seah bseah don't apply here. Similarly, Netivot Shalom 162:5 explains that once one is trying to gain another commodity it appears as though one is investing in order to gain, however, when one lends one commodity to get back the same quantity of that commodity it doesn't appear as though one is trying to invest. Chelkat Binyamin interprets the Levush 162:5 as explaining that since the difference between the prices is relative and can change yatza hashaar doesn't help. Additionally, since the second commodity isn't a complete payment of the first commodity even yesh lo is insufficient.</ref> | # If one lends one commodity for another commodity of the equivalent value it is forbidden perhaps the value of commodity that needs to be returned will increase in price. This is forbidden even if the borrower has some or all of the quantity of the commodity necessary to repay the loan and it is forbidden even if the marketplace price for the commodity to be returned is fixed.<Ref>The Raavad cited by Baal Hatrumot 46:5:7 and Tur 162:5 explains that the leniencies of seah bseah only apply when one is borrowing one commodity to repay that same commodity. However, if one repays another commodity it is forbidden even if it is yesh lo and yatza hashaar. Shulchan Aruch Y.D. 162:5 codifies the opinion of the Raavad. The Perisha 162:21 explains that when one repays a loan with the same commodity it doesn't appear as interest since the difference in price between the loan and repayment isn't viewed as significant. However, once the repayment is in another commodity it is viewed as interest. Therefore, the leniencies of seah bseah don't apply here. Similarly, Netivot Shalom 162:5 explains that once one is trying to gain another commodity it appears as though one is investing in order to gain, however, when one lends one commodity to get back the same quantity of that commodity it doesn't appear as though one is trying to invest. Chelkat Binyamin interprets the Levush 162:5 as explaining that since the difference between the prices is relative and can change yatza hashaar doesn't help. Additionally, since the second commodity isn't a complete payment of the first commodity even yesh lo is insufficient.</ref> | ||
#This is only forbidden when one states this with the language of a loan but not if one says that one is selling one commodity for another.<ref>Shach 173:16 writes that based on Tosfot Bava Metsia 46a anytime one is repaying with another commodity it is permitted since it is considered a sale and not a loan. However, when one uses the language of a loan it is nonetheless treated like a loan and interest is forbidden. The Taz 162:9 states this same opinion with respect to the Raavad. Rabbi Akiva Eiger 162:5 connects the Taz with the Shach. Chavot Daat 161:1 as explained by the Netivot Shalom 162:5 holds that anytime one repays a commodity with another one it is automatically a sale on a | #This is only forbidden when one states this with the language of a loan but not if one says that one is selling one commodity for another.<ref>Shach 173:16 writes that based on Tosfot Bava Metsia 46a anytime one is repaying with another commodity it is permitted since it is considered a sale and not a loan. However, when one uses the language of a loan it is nonetheless treated like a loan and interest is forbidden. The Taz 162:9 states this same opinion with respect to the Raavad. Rabbi Akiva Eiger 162:5 connects the Taz with the Shach. Chavot Daat 161:1 as explained by the Netivot Shalom 162:5 holds that anytime one repays a commodity with another one it is automatically a sale on a biblical level and there is only a rabbinic issue of interest.</ref> | ||
===Demanding Repayment When It Is More Expensive=== | ===Demanding Repayment When It Is More Expensive=== | ||
# If the lender demands the borrower to repay the loan specifically at a time when the commodity is generally more expensive in price that it is forbidden unless the borrower has some of the commodity.<ref>Rosh responsa 108:15 writes that even though it is permitted to lend commodities when there is a marketplace price it is forbidden when you specify that it is repaid at the time of the higher amount. Rama 162:3 cites a ruling similar to the Rosh from the Kol Bo and Smak. Shach 162:11 quotes the Rosh and in fact explains that the Rama intended to rule like the Rosh and the Kol Bo and Smak mean this as well. The Chelkat Binyamin biurim on 162:3 writes that there is a major dispute as to the meaning of the Kol Bo and Smak. The Shach as the Chelkat Binyamin explains holds it is forbidden to demand repayment of the commodity at a time when the price generally is more expensive.</ref> | # If the lender demands the borrower to repay the loan specifically at a time when the commodity is generally more expensive in price that it is forbidden unless the borrower has some of the commodity.<ref>Rosh responsa 108:15 writes that even though it is permitted to lend commodities when there is a marketplace price it is forbidden when you specify that it is repaid at the time of the higher amount. Rama 162:3 cites a ruling similar to the Rosh from the Kol Bo and Smak. Shach 162:11 quotes the Rosh and in fact explains that the Rama intended to rule like the Rosh and the Kol Bo and Smak mean this as well. The Chelkat Binyamin biurim on 162:3 writes that there is a major dispute as to the meaning of the Kol Bo and Smak. The Shach as the Chelkat Binyamin explains holds it is forbidden to demand repayment of the commodity at a time when the price generally is more expensive.</ref> | ||
# If the lender demands the borrower to repay the loan specifically at a higher price it is forbidden unless the borrower has some of the commodity.<ref>Kol Bo 84 and Smak 260, Rama 162:3. The Chelkat Binyamin biurim on 162:3 clarifies that the Kol Bo and Smak actually said that if a person specified that the commodity that was lent out needs to be repaid when it'll be more expensive on the market that it is forbidden and it is implied that it is | # If the lender demands the borrower to repay the loan specifically at a higher price it is forbidden unless the borrower has some of the commodity.<ref>Kol Bo 84 and Smak 260, Rama 162:3. The Chelkat Binyamin biurim on 162:3 clarifies that the Kol Bo and Smak actually said that if a person specified that the commodity that was lent out needs to be repaid when it'll be more expensive on the market that it is forbidden and it is implied that it is biblically forbidden.</ref> | ||
===Lending Commodities as Part of a Work Contract=== | ===Lending Commodities as Part of a Work Contract=== | ||
