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Zimmun: Difference between revisions
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# Most authorities consider Zimmun to be a rabbinic obligation. <ref> Pri Megadim (A”A 197:2) writes that most authorities consider zimmun to be of rabbinic obligation. Chaye Adam 48:1 writes that Zimmun is derabbanan and some say it’s Deoritta. Chazon Ish (31:1) argues that Zimmun should be Deoritta. </ref> | # Most authorities consider Zimmun to be a rabbinic obligation. <ref> Pri Megadim (A”A 197:2) writes that most authorities consider zimmun to be of rabbinic obligation. Chaye Adam 48:1 writes that Zimmun is derabbanan and some say it’s Deoritta. Chazon Ish (31:1) argues that Zimmun should be Deoritta. </ref> | ||
# Zimmun could be said in any language as the purpose is to introduce the [[benching]] orally and join the group together to praise Hashem. <ref> Zohar (Balak pg 186b) writes that it’s important to precede [[benching]] with “give us a cup to bench” in Hebrew or Aramaic to introduce the [[benching]] to bring the [[kedusha]]. Mishna Brurah 192:2 quotes this and writes the minhag ashkenaz was to say Zimmun in Yiddish “Rabbotei Mir Velin Benchin”. Kol Bo (Siman 25) emphasizes the group merit of the zimmun. </ref> | # Zimmun could be said in any language as the purpose is to introduce the [[benching]] orally and join the group together to praise Hashem. <ref> Zohar (Balak pg 186b) writes that it’s important to precede [[benching]] with “give us a cup to bench” in Hebrew or Aramaic to introduce the [[benching]] to bring the [[kedusha]]. Mishna Brurah 192:2 quotes this and writes the minhag ashkenaz was to say Zimmun in Yiddish “Rabbotei Mir Velin Benchin”. Kol Bo (Siman 25) emphasizes the group merit of the zimmun. </ref> | ||
# Some say that answering Zimmun is considered one of a person’s hundred [[Brachot]] every day. < | # Some say that answering Zimmun is considered one of a person’s hundred [[Brachot]] every day. <ref> Sefer [https://tablet.otzar.org/#/book/61272/p/63/t/1/fs/0/start/0/end/0/c Keysad Mezamnin 1:22] </ref> | ||
# When we say the zimmun Sephardim have a practice of starting “הב לן נברך למלכא עילאה קדישא”. Then for Shabbat they insert “ברשות שבת מלכתא” and for Yom Tov “ברשות יומא טבא אושפיזא קדישא”. For Sukkot the practice is to insert “וברשות שבעה אושפיזין עלאין קדישין”.<Ref>Ben Ish Chai Korach n. 1 records the minhag to insert special requests for permission from Shabbat, Yom Tov, and the Ushpizin. Yalkut Yosef 192:1 agrees. He cites the Yafeh Llev 1:192:5 who argues that this is a real minhag and it appears as though one is believing in two gods. Also he is degrading Hashem’s dynasty by comparing it with other entities. Yalkut Yosef defends the minhag that one’s intent isn’t to compare Hashem to anything and it is just for honor to mention them. Mayim Chaim 2:17 agrees.</ref> | # When we say the zimmun Sephardim have a practice of starting “הב לן נברך למלכא עילאה קדישא”. Then for Shabbat they insert “ברשות שבת מלכתא” and for Yom Tov “ברשות יומא טבא אושפיזא קדישא”. For Sukkot the practice is to insert “וברשות שבעה אושפיזין עלאין קדישין”.<Ref>Ben Ish Chai Korach n. 1 records the minhag to insert special requests for permission from Shabbat, Yom Tov, and the Ushpizin. Yalkut Yosef 192:1 agrees. He cites the Yafeh Llev 1:192:5 who argues that this is a real minhag and it appears as though one is believing in two gods. Also he is degrading Hashem’s dynasty by comparing it with other entities. Yalkut Yosef defends the minhag that one’s intent isn’t to compare Hashem to anything and it is just for honor to mention them. Mayim Chaim 2:17 agrees.</ref> | ||
# Some say that one should ask permission from the wife of the host in the zimmun as well.<ref>[https://eretzhemdah.org/newsletterArticle.asp?lang=he&pageid=48&cat=1&newsletter=949&article=3637 Mareh Habazak 5:9] writes that one should ask permission from the wife of the host in the zimmun since it is socially appropriate and nice it should be obligatory. He explains that the asking permission in zimmun isn’t really asking permission but just an honor. See the Sephardim practice of mentioning Shabbat and Yom Tov in the zimmun.</ref> | # Some say that one should ask permission from the wife of the host in the zimmun as well.<ref>[https://eretzhemdah.org/newsletterArticle.asp?lang=he&pageid=48&cat=1&newsletter=949&article=3637 Mareh Habazak 5:9] writes that one should ask permission from the wife of the host in the zimmun since it is socially appropriate and nice it should be obligatory. He explains that the asking permission in zimmun isn’t really asking permission but just an honor. See the Sephardim practice of mentioning Shabbat and Yom Tov in the zimmun.</ref> | ||
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# If seven people ate bread and three people ate a [[kezayit]] of another food or drank a [[reviyit]] of a drink<ref>The Kol Bo 25 cited by Bet Yosef has a doubt whether those joining have to eat a kezayit or reviyit of drink to join or anything is sufficient. Shulchan Aruch rules that a kezayit of food or reviyit of drink is necessary.</ref> other than water, they can join together for a Zimmun with the insertion of Elokenu. If there are only six people who ate bread they can't make a Zimmun with Elokenu. <ref>Shulchan Aruch 197:2. Rav is quoted in Gemara Brachot 48a as saying that if one of the ten ate a vegetable he can join for a zimmun. Tosfot s.v. tisha adds that even drinking counts like eating. Rambam Brachot 5:8, Tur and Shulchan Aruch 197:2 codify this gemara. | # If seven people ate bread and three people ate a [[kezayit]] of another food or drank a [[reviyit]] of a drink<ref>The Kol Bo 25 cited by Bet Yosef has a doubt whether those joining have to eat a kezayit or reviyit of drink to join or anything is sufficient. Shulchan Aruch rules that a kezayit of food or reviyit of drink is necessary.</ref> other than water, they can join together for a Zimmun with the insertion of Elokenu. If there are only six people who ate bread they can't make a Zimmun with Elokenu. <ref>Shulchan Aruch 197:2. Rav is quoted in Gemara Brachot 48a as saying that if one of the ten ate a vegetable he can join for a zimmun. Tosfot s.v. tisha adds that even drinking counts like eating. Rambam Brachot 5:8, Tur and Shulchan Aruch 197:2 codify this gemara. | ||
* Rabbi Zeira asked whether two or three people who ate a vegetable can join and Rav Yehuda told him that they could. Rabbi Zeira didn't ask whether four who ate vegetables can join because he thought that you need a significant majority. Rabbi Yirmiya argued that four could join which there is still a majority of those who had bread. Rashi understands that Rabbi Zeira didn't ask original because of his idea but really he regretted that he didn't ask about four. The Bet Yosef 197:2 explains for the Rambam and others that Rabbi Zeira was steadfast in his opinion that four can't join. Interestingly, the Or Zaruah 1:197 cited by Bet Yosef in fact holds that four can join. Shulchan Aruch doesn't hold like the Or Zaruah.</ref> | * Rabbi Zeira asked whether two or three people who ate a vegetable can join and Rav Yehuda told him that they could. Rabbi Zeira didn't ask whether four who ate vegetables can join because he thought that you need a significant majority. Rabbi Yirmiya argued that four could join which there is still a majority of those who had bread. Rashi understands that Rabbi Zeira didn't ask original because of his idea but really he regretted that he didn't ask about four. The Bet Yosef 197:2 explains for the Rambam and others that Rabbi Zeira was steadfast in his opinion that four can't join. Interestingly, the Or Zaruah 1:197 cited by Bet Yosef in fact holds that four can join. Shulchan Aruch doesn't hold like the Or Zaruah.</ref> | ||
# According to Sephardim, one doesn't have to stand for the word Elokenu in the Zimmun. <ref>Halacha Brurah 192:12</ref> Some Ashkenazim have the custom to stand for the word Elokenu in a zimmun of ten, however those who don't stand have what to rely on.< | # According to Sephardim, one doesn't have to stand for the word Elokenu in the Zimmun. <ref>Halacha Brurah 192:12</ref> Some Ashkenazim have the custom to stand for the word Elokenu in a zimmun of ten, however those who don't stand have what to rely on.<ref>[https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=887&pgnum=12 Sh"t Be’er Moshe 1:2] compares standing for Elokenu of zimmun to standing for barchu and concludes that one should stand but if one doesn't there is what to rely upon. [https://www.yutorah.org/lectures/897474 Rav Schachter (Brachot Shiur 87 at the end)] said that Rav Soloveitchik's minhag was not to stand for Elokenu of zimmun of ten but those who do stand think that it is like a dvar shebekedusha ([https://www.sefaria.org/Kessef_Mishneh_on_Mishneh_Torah%2C_Blessings.5.7.3?lang=bi Kesef Mishna Brachot 5:7]). | ||
* Is Zimmun a Dvar Shebekedusha? The Rambam Brachot 5:7 writes that even though women can have a zimun on their own they can’t have a zimun of ten with Elokenu. (Interestingly, the Sefer Meorot Brachot 45a argues on the Rambam.) Kesef Mishna Brachot 5:7 explains that a zimun with Elokenu is a dvar shebekedusha. Meiri Brachot 47b s.v. nashim, Bach 199:7, Perisha 199:16, Ateret Tzvi 199:5, and Mishna Brurah 199:15 agree with this statement explicitly. However, Even Haazel Brachot 5:7 and Divrei Yirmiyahu Brachot 5:7 argue that zimun with Elokenu really isn’t a dvar shebekedusha but requires a minyan for the respect of Hashem’s name (Brachot 45b) and that’s why a child can join for zimun. (See Meiri who tries to address this.) Kavod Yom Tov Brachot 5:7 provides a compromise calling it a minor dvar shebekedusha.</ref> | *Is Zimmun a Dvar Shebekedusha? The Rambam Brachot 5:7 writes that even though women can have a zimun on their own they can’t have a zimun of ten with Elokenu. (Interestingly, the Sefer Meorot Brachot 45a argues on the Rambam.) Kesef Mishna Brachot 5:7 explains that a zimun with Elokenu is a dvar shebekedusha. Meiri Brachot 47b s.v. nashim, Bach 199:7, Perisha 199:16, Ateret Tzvi 199:5, and Mishna Brurah 199:15 agree with this statement explicitly. However, Even Haazel Brachot 5:7 and Divrei Yirmiyahu Brachot 5:7 argue that zimun with Elokenu really isn’t a dvar shebekedusha but requires a minyan for the respect of Hashem’s name (Brachot 45b) and that’s why a child can join for zimun. (See Meiri who tries to address this.) Kavod Yom Tov Brachot 5:7 provides a compromise calling it a minor dvar shebekedusha.</ref> | ||
==Two who ate together== | ==Two who ate together== | ||
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# The original establishment was that the one doing Zimmun would read the entire [[Birkat HaMazon]] out loud. Nowadays, the practice is that everyone say it silently to themselves. <Ref> Vezot HaBracha (pg 128, chapter 14) quotes that Panim Meirot that the original establishment was that one person say it aloud and everyone listen. However, S”A 183:7 writes that the practice that should be followed nowadays is that one person say it aloud and everyone to follow along Bracha by Bracha. </ref> | # The original establishment was that the one doing Zimmun would read the entire [[Birkat HaMazon]] out loud. Nowadays, the practice is that everyone say it silently to themselves. <Ref> Vezot HaBracha (pg 128, chapter 14) quotes that Panim Meirot that the original establishment was that one person say it aloud and everyone listen. However, S”A 183:7 writes that the practice that should be followed nowadays is that one person say it aloud and everyone to follow along Bracha by Bracha. </ref> | ||
# According to Ashkenazim it’s preferable to finish the Bracha before the Mezamen (one doing the Zimmun) and then when the Mezamen finishes answer [[Amen]]. According to Sephardim there’s no reason to finish before the Mezamen and if one did, nonetheless, one doesn’t answer [[Amen]]. <Ref>S”A and Rama 183:7, Vezot HaBracha (pg 128, chapter 14) </ref> See further on the [[Birkat HaMazon]] page. | # According to Ashkenazim it’s preferable to finish the Bracha before the Mezamen (one doing the Zimmun) and then when the Mezamen finishes answer [[Amen]]. According to Sephardim there’s no reason to finish before the Mezamen and if one did, nonetheless, one doesn’t answer [[Amen]]. <Ref>S”A and Rama 183:7, Vezot HaBracha (pg 128, chapter 14) </ref> See further on the [[Birkat HaMazon]] page. | ||
# If it’s difficult to listen to the entire [[Birkat HaMazon]] out loud one should at least listen to the primary part of the Bracha, which according to Sephardim is Birkat Hazimmun (the words “Baruch SheAchalnu…Chayinu”) and according to Ashkenazim is through Birkat HaZan (the first Bracha of [[Birkat HaMazon]]). Therefore according to Ashkenazim the Mezamen (even if he is Sephardi) must say the first Bracha out loud and everyone should say it silently along with the Mezamen. <ref>S”A and Rama 200:1 identify clearly the crucial part of Zimmun, according to S”A it is the Zimmun of Baruch SheAchalnu and according to the Rama it is including the first Bracha. Mishna Brurah 183:28 holds that Ashkenazim should at least say the first Bracha quietly together with the Mezamen and those who have the minhag that everyone just says it to themselves are mistaken. This is also the opinion of Vezot HaBracha (pg 129, chapter 14) and he warns that not doing so is against the halacha. Vezot HaBracha (pg 335) quotes Rav Wosner in [https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=50286&pgnum=64 Kovetz MeBet Levi (Nissan 5758) pg. 64] who defends the minhag slightly. Yalkut Yosef (vol 3 pg 371) says that a Sephardi who is a Mezamen for Ashkenazim should say the first Bracha out loud. [https://www.yutorah.org/ | # If it’s difficult to listen to the entire [[Birkat HaMazon]] out loud one should at least listen to the primary part of the Bracha, which according to Sephardim is Birkat Hazimmun (the words “Baruch SheAchalnu…Chayinu”) and according to Ashkenazim is through Birkat HaZan (the first Bracha of [[Birkat HaMazon]]). Therefore according to Ashkenazim the Mezamen (even if he is Sephardi) must say the first Bracha out loud and everyone should say it silently along with the Mezamen. <ref>S”A and Rama 200:1 identify clearly the crucial part of Zimmun, according to S”A it is the Zimmun of Baruch SheAchalnu and according to the Rama it is including the first Bracha. Mishna Brurah 183:28 holds that Ashkenazim should at least say the first Bracha quietly together with the Mezamen and those who have the minhag that everyone just says it to themselves are mistaken. This is also the opinion of Vezot HaBracha (pg 129, chapter 14) and he warns that not doing so is against the halacha. Vezot HaBracha (pg 335) quotes Rav Wosner in [https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=50286&pgnum=64 Kovetz MeBet Levi (Nissan 5758) pg. 64] who defends the minhag slightly. Yalkut Yosef (vol 3 pg 371) says that a Sephardi who is a Mezamen for Ashkenazim should say the first Bracha out loud. [https://www.yutorah.org/lectures/897474 Rav Hershel Schachter Shiur on Berachos #87 44b-45b (at 69:51)] said that Ashkenazim should have the mezamen say the entire birkat hamazon out loud slowly and everyone say it along with him and if they don't so they aren't fulfilling zimun. (However, at 70:53 he qualified his statement by saying that there is a partial fulfillment of zimun even when not hearing the ''entire'' birkat hamazon out loud.)</ref> | ||
# According to Ashkenazim, if there’s a large group and those [[benching]] will not hear the Mezamen until the end of the first Bracha it’s preferable for the group to separate into groups of three so that it’s possible to hear the Mezamen until the end of the first Bracha. <Ref>Mishna Brurah 193:17, Vezot HaBracha (pg 129, chapter 14) also quotes the Chazon Ish who argues but still quotes the Mishna Brurah as the primary opinion. </ref> | # According to Ashkenazim, if there’s a large group and those [[benching]] will not hear the Mezamen until the end of the first Bracha it’s preferable for the group to separate into groups of three so that it’s possible to hear the Mezamen until the end of the first Bracha. <Ref>Mishna Brurah 193:17, Vezot HaBracha (pg 129, chapter 14) also quotes the Chazon Ish who argues but still quotes the Mishna Brurah as the primary opinion. </ref> | ||
# It’s preferable that the Mezamen not use a microphone for Zimmun but rather someone with a loud voice do the Zimmun. <Ref>Vezot HaBracha (pg 129, chapter 14) </ref> | # It’s preferable that the Mezamen not use a microphone for Zimmun but rather someone with a loud voice do the Zimmun. <Ref>Vezot HaBracha (pg 129, chapter 14) </ref> | ||
