Making a meal on Mezonot

From Halachipedia

Koveh Seudah on Pat HaBah BeKisnin

Halachot for Ashkenazim

Which foods when eaten as a meal require HaMotzei?

  1. The following foods are called Pas HaBah BeKisnin and if one eats a Shuir Seuda one must make a HaMotzei: Berakas, Hotdog in pastry, cake, cookies, pretzels, crackers, and cereals made from the 5 grains. [1]
  2. The following foods are called Tavshil Mezonot and even if one eats a Shuir Seuda one makes a Mezonot: Farina, oatmeal, noodles, rice, soup nuts, farfel, couscous, blintzes, kugel*, and wafers*. [2]
  3. There’s a doubt whether Pizza (specifically when it’s mixed with majority of fruit juices) and “mezonot” rolls are considered like bread or Pas HaBah Bekisnin, therefore, one should eat them in a meal. However, if that’s impossible, one has what to rely on to make a HaMotzei, and one has what to rely on to make a Mezonot. [3]
  4. Pizza (which doesn’t have majority of fruit juices, such as Chadar Ochel pizza), Matzah, and French Toast have the status of bread and require HaMotzei. [4]

Shuir Seuda

  1. Someone who eats a Shuir Seuda of Pas HaBah Bekisnin must wash with a Bracha, make HaMotzei, and Birkat HaMazon. In terms of timing, all food that’s eaten during a meal is included as long as one kezayit of Pas HaBah Bekisnin is eaten within Kedi Achilat Pras (4 minutes). [5]
  2. There’s a dispute whether the Shuir Seuda is 8 kezayit or the amount a regular person eats for a meal(on average for regular cake is about 20 Kezaytim). Preferably, a person should eat less than 8 kezaytim and make a Mezonot or eat more than 20 kezaytim and make HaMotzei. After the fact (if one ate between 8 and 20 Kezayitim), if one is not full make Al HaMichya yet it’s preferable to hear Birkat HaMazon (from someone who’s obligated to make Birkat HaMazon), and if one is full make Birkat HaMazon. [6]

Shuir Seuda together with other foods

  1. One shouldn’t eat a kezayit of Pas HaBah Bekisnin together with other foods (any food even if it’s not Melaftim Et HaPat) if altogether there’s a shuir of 8 kezayitim whether one has in mind to establish a meal or not. [7]
  2. A practical advice is to eat the Pas HaBah Bekisnin, make Al Hamichya, and then eat the other foods, or eat the other foods, make Bracha Achrona, and then eat the Pas HaBah Bekisnin. However, this advice isn’t applicable if the other foods include mezonot (such as rice or noodles) because of making an unnecessary Bracha. [8]
  3. After the fact, if one ate less than 8 kezayitim of Pas HaBah Bekisnin even if one’s full, one should make an Al Hamichya, Similarly, if one ate more than 8 kezaytim of Pas HaBah Bekisnin together with foods that don’t accompany bread (such as farfel, rice, fruit, or sweets) and if full from everything together, one should make a Al HaMichya unless one was full from the Pas HaBah Bekisnin alone in which case one should make Birkat HaMazon. If one ate more than 8 kezaytim of Pas HaBah Bekisnin together with foods that accompany bread (such as meat, fish, cheese, or vegetables) and if full from everything together, one should make Birkat HaMazon. [9]
  4. The only way to make a HaMotzei without a doubt is to:1)eat bread, 2)have 20 kezaytim of Pas HaBah Bekisnin alone, or 3)have 8 kezaytim of Pas HaBah Bekisnin together with foods that accompany bread (such as meat, fish, cheese, vegetables). [10]

Halachot for Sephardim

Which foods when eaten as a meal require HaMotzei?

  1. The following foods are called Pas HaBah BeKisnin and if one eats a Shuir Seuda one must make a HaMotzei: Berakas, Hotdog in pastry, cake, “mezonot” rolls, cookies, pretzels, crackers, and cereals made from the 5 grains. [11]
  2. The following foods are called Tavshil Mezonot and even if one eats a Shuir Seuda one makes a Mezonot: Farina, oatmeal, noodles, rice, soup nuts, farfel, couscous, blintzes, kugel*, and wafers*. [12]
  3. Pizza when the dough is not made from water the Bracha is HaMotzei. When the dough is mixed with fruit juices (to the extent that one can taste the sweeteners) is Pas HaBah Bekisnin and one should make Mezonot. [13]
  4. French Toast (which is served in Chadar Ochel) have the status of bread and require HaMotzei. [14]
  5. The minhag is to make Mezonot and Al HaMichya on Matzah and the minhag has what to rely on. However, those who want to make HaMotzei when eaten as a meal (even without 216 grams) can do so. A Yireh Shamayim would eat it in a meal with real bread. [15]

Shuir Seuda

  1. Someone who eats a Shuir Seuda of Pas HaBah Bekisnin must wash without a Bracha, make HaMotzei, and Birkat HaMazon. In terms of timing, all food that’s eaten during a meal is included as long as one kezayit of Pas HaBah Bekisnin is eaten within Kedi Achilat Pras (4 minutes). [Those who wash with a Bracha have what to rely on.] [16]
  2. There’s a dispute whether the Shuir Seuda is 6 kezayitim or 8 kezayitim. Preferably, a person should eat less than 162 grams and make a Mezonot or eat more than 216 grams and make HaMotzei (it’s preferable to eat 230 grams). After the fact (if one ate between 162 and 216 grams) make Al HaMichya. Before eating 162 grams one should wash one’s hand without a Bracha. [No other foods add to the Shuir Seuda besides Pas HaBah Bekisnin.] [17]


Keviut Seduah on Shabbat

  1. There’s no difference between Shabbat and the rest of the week regarding the status of the Pat habah BeKisnin. [18]
  2. If a Sephardi is eating at an Ashkenazic family who is having sweet challah for Hamotzei, ideally, one should eat 8 or at least 6 kezaytim of mezonot in order to be able to make HaMotzei and Birkat HaMazon, however, since that's usually very difficult there is what to rely on to make a HaMotzei and Birkat HaMazon even if one only eats a Kezayit of the sweet Challah. [19]

==Changing one's mind

  1. If one started the meal thinking that one was going to have 8 Kezayitim and then changed his mind and couldn’t finish all 8 Kezayitim, one may finish eating based on his orginal HaMotzei and concludes with a Al HaMichya. [20]
  2. If one made a Mezonot thinking that one was only going to have a few Kezayitim and then changed his mind to end up having 8 Kezayitim, if one plans on having another 8 Kezayitim one should stop and wash with a bracha and make HaMotzei.
  3. If one made Mezonot planning to have a few Kezyitim, and then changes to have another few Kezayitim and in total all he ate will add up to 8 Kezayitim one shouldn’t make any new bracha upon changing one’s mind, however, if one started thinking that one would not have more than a certain amount and now clearly changes his mind about that, one should make a new Mezonot. Nonetheless, one concludes with Birkat HaMazon. [21]

Koveh Seudah.png

References

  1. ↑ Vezot HaBracha (Chapter 4, pg 26)
  2. ↑ Vezot HaBracha (Chapter 4, pg 26). There he mentions that majority of poskim hold that kugel is Tavshil Mezonot and similarly concerning wafers there’s some doubt in the poskim even though the primary halacha is that it’s Tavshil Mezonot.
  3. ↑ Vezot HaBracha (Birur 56, pg 352)
  4. ↑ Vezot HaBracha (Chapter 3, pg 20,21,23)
  5. ↑ S”A 168:6, Vezot HaBracha (Chapter 4, pg 27), Kaf HaCHaim and Sh”t Korban Eshe write that one needs to have all of the 4 Kebayitzim in one Kedi Achilat Pras. However, Yalkut Yosef (Birkat HaMazon pg 130) writes that the strict halacha only requires that one have one Kezayit in a Kedi Achilat Pras.
  6. ↑ Vezot HaBracha (Chapter 4, pg 31). Vezot HaBracha (Chapter 4, pg 29 note 7) writes that one who eats Pas HaBah Bekisnin as a snack may be lenient to make a Mezonot and eat up to 12 Kezaytim. The Bet Yosef in name of Shibolei HaLeket, Sefer Eshkol, Magan Avraham, Shagat Aryeh (quoted by Mishna Brurah (Shaar HaTzion 168:19)), Chaye Adam in name of the Gra, and Shulchan Aruch HaGra hold that the amount of Keviut Seudah depends on the amount people normally eat at a regular meal. However, the Birkei Yosef 186:4 and Kaf HaChaim 168:45 is to calculate the Keviut Seudah based on the amount needed for a Seduah by the laws of Eruv Chatzerot which is either 3 or 4 KeBaytzim. The Mishna Brurah 168:24 writes that one should be strict for those who are strict to require 4 KeBaytzim.
  7. ↑ Mishna Brurah 168:24, Vezot HaBracha (Chapter 4, pg 32-3). Vezot HaBracha (pg 33) adds that there’s what to rely on to eat less than 8 kezayitim of Pas HaBah Bekisnin together with food that’s not Melafet HaPat (rice, couscous, noodles, fruit, or sweets but not meat, fish, cheese, or vegetables) and make a Mezonot and Al HaMichya.
  8. ↑ Vezot HaBracha (Chapter 4, pg 33). Vezot HaBracha (Birur 7 pg 234) adds that if the other foods are Tavshil Mezonot (like rice and noodles) and the above advice isn’t applicable, there’s what to rely on to eat Pas HaBah Bekisnin at the end of the meal after one ate the other foods (without making a Bracha achrona on the other foods).
  9. ↑ Vezot HaBracha (Chapter 4, pg 33 note 11)
  10. ↑ Vezot HaBracha (Chapter 4, pg 31 and pg 33 note 11)
  11. ↑ Vezot HaBracha (Chapter 4, pg 26)
  12. ↑ Vezot HaBracha (Chapter 4, pg 26). There he mentions that majority of poskim hold that kugel is Tavshil Mezonot and similarly concerning wafers there’s some doubt in the poskim even though the primary halacha is that it’s Tavshil Mezonot.
  13. ↑ Vezot HaBracha (Chapter 3, pg 22)
  14. ↑ Vezot HaBracha (Chapter 3 pg 22)
  15. ↑ Vezot HaBracha (Chapter 3, pg 20), Yalkut Yosef (Kitzur S”A 168:4)
  16. ↑ S”A 168:6, Vezot HaBracha (Chapter 4, pg 27), Yalkut Yosef (Kitzur S”A 168:8). Kaf HaCHaim and Sh”t Korban Eshe write that one needs to have all of the 4 Kebayitzim in one Kedi Achilat Pras. However, Yalkut Yosef (Birkat HaMazon pg 130) writes that the strict halacha only requires that one have one Kezayit in a Kedi Achilat Pras.
  17. ↑ Vezot HaBracha (Chapter 4 pg 37). The Bet Yosef in name of Shibolei HaLeket, Sefer Eshkol, Magan Avraham, Shagat Aryeh (quoted by Mishna Brurah (Shaar HaTzion 168:19)), Chaye Adam in name of the Gra, and Shulchan Aruch HaGra hold that the amount of Keviut Seudah depends on the amount people normally eat at a regular meal. However, the Birkei Yosef 186:4 and Kaf HaChaim 168:45 is to calculate the Keviut Seudah based on the amount needed for a Seduah by the laws of Eruv Chatzerot which is either 3 or 4 KeBaytzim. Kaf HaChaim 168:47 rules against the Magan Avraham 168:13 and says that S”A implies that one must be the amount of a meal from the Pat itself.
  18. ↑ Kaf HaChaim 168:48.
  19. ↑ Vezot HaBracha (Chapter 4, pg 39) in name of Rav Mordechai Eliyahu and Rav Elyashiv paskening for Sephardim
  20. ↑ Sh”t Igrot Moshe O”C 2:54, Yalkut Yosef (Birkat HaMazon pg 137).
  21. ↑ Mishan Brurah 168:25 writes that if one changed one’s mind one doesn’t make a new HaMotzei if one doesn’t plan on eating more than 8 Kezayitim. Mishna Brurah (Shaar Tzion 168:21) writes that one shouldn’t make a new Mezonot unless one clearly changed one’s mind such as if when he started he thought that he will not eat more than a certain amount, however, if one didn’t clearly retract his opinion then one doesn’t make a new Mezonot.
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