Halachot of Dating: Difference between revisions

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==Looking at One's Date==
== Parental Objections ==
# If you're interested in getting married it is permitted and appropriate to look at a woman in order to see if you like her.<ref>Rambam Isurei Biyah 21:3, Shulchan Aruch EH 21:3, Nitai Gavriel Shidduchim p. 84</ref> However, he may not look in an inappropriate way (derech zenut).<ref>Shulchan Aruch E.H. 21:3, Shevet Halevi 5:200</ref>  
Technically, the halacha is that if parents object to a child’s shidduch, the child is not necessarily bound by that request.<ref>The Maharik (responsa 164) writes about a case where a young man’s parents don't want their son to marry a certain young woman whom he is interested in marrying. He posits three reasons why the son isn't bound by his parents’ wishes in this case. First, Kibbud Av V’em primarily means servicing a parent, but does not require listening to them in ways that don't directly benefit them. Second, Kibbud Av V’em is a mitzvah which doesn't need to come at one's own expense, and losing a potential spouse is worth more than money. Finally, since getting married is a mitzvah, a parent can't prevent a child from doing a mitzvah. Rama Y.D. 240:25 codifies this Maharik. Gra 240:36 and Chazon Ish YD 149:8 support the Maharik.</ref>  
==What Sort of Girl to Look for==


=== Looks ===
There are several qualifications to that statement
A person shouldn’t look for a “movie-star” and focus too much on physical looks. The most important thing to look for is yirat shamayim. This message is encapsulated eloquently in the pasuk “תתהלל היא' ה יראת אישה היופי והבל החן שקר” “Grace is deceitful, and beauty is vain; but a woman that fears Hashem, she should be praised” (Mishlei 31:30).<ref>Rav Schachter (Mussar Shmooze on Dating min 3- 7).</ref>


=== Money ===
# Some say that if the parent has reasonable grounds for suspecting that the shidduch will harm their child's wellbeing, the child is bound to listen. <ref>Sefer Chasidim 564 writes that although parents generally cannot object to a child getting married, if the potential shidduch would be spiritually hazardous for their child, the child must listen to their parents. His proof is that Yaakov listened to Yitzchak not to marry any of the women of Kenaan. On this basis, Yalkut Yosef (Kibbud Av V’em p. 438) and Rav Aryeh Leib Shteinman (K'ayal Tarog Shidduchin p. 46) write that if the prospective young woman or man isn’t actually a good fit spiritually, the children certainly must listen to their parents. Yalkut Yosef clarifies that the Maharik (see next footnote) agrees with this. Rav Willig (oral communication) thought that this is a very important consideration when applying the Maharik.</ref>
While technically permitted,<ref>The Gemara Kiddushin 70a curses anyone who marries for money that his children will have bad character traits. Based on Rashi, the Rivash 15 writes that the gemara's curse only applies when the woman in question is forbidden to him and he wants to marry her nonetheless for her money. However, if she's otherwise permitted to him, it is permissible even if his intention is for money. Rama E.H. 2:1 codifies the Rivash.</ref> it is ill-advised to marry purely for money.<ref>Rama E.H. 2:1 cites the Orchot Chaim who writes that a person shouldn't break a shidduch for money and should just be happy with whatever money they get as a dowry. Chelkat Mechokek 2:1 clarifies that although it is permitted to marry for money if she's permitted to him, it is forbidden to decide not to marry someone because they don't have money and delay getting married because of that. The Gra 2:6 disagrees and understands that the Orchot Chaim disagrees with the Rivash, and in fact would forbid getting married for money even to a woman he’s permitted to.</ref> However, if the prospective spouse has good middot and is a good shidduch, the fact that money is another factor in the equation is of no consequence.<ref>Aruch Hashulchan 2:1 writes that there is nothing wrong with considering money as a factor as long as it isn’t the only factor. Rav Schachter (Mussar Shmooze on Dating min 3-6) explains that while Chazal say terrible things about someone who marries for money, if the shidduch is a good one, the fact that she has money isn’t something to hold against her. He cautions about the type of lifestyle you’re getting into if you marry into a rich family and how it might impact the marriage if it is so different from the lifestyle you’re used to.</ref> Like anything tangible in life, money can come and go. Therefore, one shouldn’t weigh money or prominence too highly when considering a shidduch.<ref>Rav Aryeh Leib Shteinman (K'ayal Tarog Shidduchin p. 8) relates that the Maharal of Prague attributed his success in Torah learning to the following incident. He was originally engaged to a woman and his prospective father-in-law promised a nice dowry that would enable him to continue learning Torah after his marriage. In those days, it was very common and customary to have large dowries for a son-in-law to be able to learn for some time after marriage. Shortly thereafter, the father-in-law’s business fell on hard times and it became clear that he couldn’t afford giving them a generous dowry. The Maharal reassured his father-in-law that he would marry her anyway as their honor was more important to him than money. Hashem rewarded this decision: One day when his wife was selling rolls in the market, a man left his coat there, which they found was filled with jewels. The man never returned to claim the coat and they were able to use the jewels to support the Maharal’s learning.</ref>
# If the parents are seriously pained by the shidduch, some poskim hold that one must listen to one’s parents. <ref>Meishiv Davar 2:50 says that if the parents are pained by a certain shidduch, the child should listen to them. Rav Aryeh Leib Shteinman (K'ayal Tarog Shidduchin p. 46) agrees.</ref>
# In any case of parental disapproval, one should consult a rabbi. Even when the halacha is that one doesn't need to obey the parents’ wishes on this issue, a wise person would certainly take his parents’ position into consideration as they usually have significantly more experience and insight.<ref>Rav Schachter (Mussar Shmooze on Dating min 16). Similarly, Shevet Halevi 4:124, Tzitz Eliezer 13:78, and Yalkut Yosef (Kibbud Av V’em p. 437) all hold that even though one doesn't have to listen to one's parents, he should do everything in his power to get them on his side to agree with the shidduch.</ref>


=== בת תלמיד חכם ===
==Looking at One's Date==
The Gemara encourages a man to sell everything he has in order to marry a woman who is a בת תלמיד חכם <ref>Gemara Pesachim 49b, Rambam Isurei Biyah 21:32 and Shulchan Aruch E.H. 2:6</ref>
# If you're interested in getting married it is permitted and appropriate to look at a woman in order to see if you like her.<ref>Rambam Isurei Biyah 21:3, Shulchan Aruch EH 21:3, Nitai Gavriel Shidduchim p. 84</ref> However, he may not look in an inappropriate way (derech zenut).<ref>Shulchan Aruch E.H. 21:3, Shevet Halevi 5:200</ref>  
 
Usually that is translated as a daughter of a talmid chacham. However, some explain that this means a female equivalent of a talmid chacham, meaning a woman who has learned Torah.<ref>Chazon Ish (quoted by Rav Eliyahu Baruch Finkel on Beresheet p. 417)</ref> Others understand that this includes a woman who appreciates Torah and will encourage her husband to become a talmid chacham.<ref>Rav Aryeh Leib Shteinman (K'ayal Tarog Shidduchin p. 9). See also Rashi Pesachim 49b s.v. am, Taz E.H. 2:3, and Birkei Yosef 2:4.</ref> Alternatively, the point of the gemara is that one should marry into a family that values Torah so that one’s children will be raised to learn Torah. It doesn’t matter whether her father actually is a talmid chacham or not as long as she values Torah.<ref>Michtam Pesachim 49a s.v. muvtach, Rav Elyashiv (Pesachim 49a s.v. v’isa)</ref>
 
=== בת כהן ===
Kohanim have a special status among the Jewish people and it is fitting for the daughter of a kohen to marry a kohen or a talmid chacham, since Torah is considered a “crown” comparable to the “crown” of kehuna. Though we aren’t necessarily so strict about this, someone who is not religious and degrades mitzvot should not marry a bat kohen.<ref>Gemara Pesachim 49a, Rambam Isurei Biyah 21:31, Shulchan Aruch E.H. 2:8. These sources indicate that an am ha’aretz, an irreligious Jew, may not marry a bat kohen. Chavot Yair 70 writes that nowadays we don't have an am ha'aretz for these purposes and anyone can marry a bat kohen. Pitchei Teshuva Y.D. 217:16, E.H. 2:9 and Machatzit Hashekel 415:1 cite the Chavot Yair. Mishna Brurah 415:2 quotes the Chavot Yair but qualifies that if a person degrades mitzvot they are certainly in the category of am ha'aretz even today and may not marry a bat kohen.
 
Aruch Hashulchan E.H. 2:5 agrees with the Chavot Yair. Firstly, he cites the Tzemach Tzedek 11 who writes that someone who knows even one masechet isn't an am ha'aretz. Tzemach Tzedek concludes that although amei ha'aretz still exist today, we can allow them to marry a bat kohen since it isn't clear that we have kohanim who have clear lineage today. Ruach Chaim 2:3 also assumes we have amei ha'aretz today. He advises against marrying a bat kohen but doesn't say it is forbidden. Cheena V’chisda v. 2 p. 228c s.v. heneh and Yemey Shlomo Isurei Biyah 21 disagree with the Chavot Yair. Rav Ovadia Yosef in Yabia Omer Y.D. 3:7:1 and Yechave Daat 5:61 says that a ben yeshiva can certainly marry a bat kohen and doesn’t have to be concerned that he’s not a talmid chacham. Yalkut Yosef E.H. 1:20 recommends that someone who doesn’t keep Shabbat should be talked out of marrying a bat kohen unless they become a complete baal teshuva
 
</ref>


=== Aliya ===
==Looking at a Shidduch Picture before Going Out==
Even if a person wants to make aliya, Rav Schachter suggests that he look for a religious young woman here and determine later if aliya is possible. If not, it is more important to marry a suitable young woman than to make aliya.<ref>Rav Schachter (Mussar Shmooze on Dating min 10)</ref>
# Rabbi Yair Hoffman (www.5tjt.com/shidduch-pictures-rav-chaim-and-a-new-perspective/ Jan 6 2015) wrote an article describing why it isn't appropriate for a boy to demand a shidduch picture before going out.<ref> He quoted the Chabiner Rav, Rav Dovid Feinstein, Rav Moshe Heinemann, Rav Shmuel Fuerst, and Rav Chaim Kanievsky as all expressing disapproval of this practice because either it doesn't give the girl a fair chance, pictures can be deceiving, and it isn't tzanua for a girl to be giving out her picture.</ref>


==Number of Dates==
==Number of Dates==
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# A person should consult with his rebbe from yeshiva how often to go out during engagement is considered appropriate.<ref>Beer Yisrael p. 51</ref>  
# A person should consult with his rebbe from yeshiva how often to go out during engagement is considered appropriate.<ref>Beer Yisrael p. 51</ref>  
==Age for Marriage==
==Age for Marriage==
# If a person is concerned that getting married will cause him to be caught up with concerns of parnasa and won’t have an ability to learn he can delay getting married until he is 24.<ref>Nitai Gavriel Shiduchim p. 71</ref>
See [[Right Age to Marry]] page.


==Yichud==
==Yichud==

Revision as of 22:43, 25 June 2024

Parental Objections

Technically, the halacha is that if parents object to a child’s shidduch, the child is not necessarily bound by that request.[1]

There are several qualifications to that statement

  1. Some say that if the parent has reasonable grounds for suspecting that the shidduch will harm their child's wellbeing, the child is bound to listen. [2]
  2. If the parents are seriously pained by the shidduch, some poskim hold that one must listen to one’s parents. [3]
  3. In any case of parental disapproval, one should consult a rabbi. Even when the halacha is that one doesn't need to obey the parents’ wishes on this issue, a wise person would certainly take his parents’ position into consideration as they usually have significantly more experience and insight.[4]

Looking at One's Date

  1. If you're interested in getting married it is permitted and appropriate to look at a woman in order to see if you like her.[5] However, he may not look in an inappropriate way (derech zenut).[6]

Looking at a Shidduch Picture before Going Out

  1. Rabbi Yair Hoffman (www.5tjt.com/shidduch-pictures-rav-chaim-and-a-new-perspective/ Jan 6 2015) wrote an article describing why it isn't appropriate for a boy to demand a shidduch picture before going out.[7]

Number of Dates

  1. Some poskim advised against having too many dates such as 3 or 4.[8]
  2. A person should consult with his rebbe from yeshiva how often to go out during engagement is considered appropriate.[9]

Age for Marriage

See Right Age to Marry page.

Yichud

See the Yichud page.

  1. The couple should be extra vigilant in being cautious of the halachot of yichud during dating especially after engagement.[10]
  2. While engaged a couple shouldn’t sleep in the same house even if there’s no issue of yichud.[11]

Revealing Information

See the Lashon Hara page.

  1. It is forbidden to find something seriously negative in a shidduch.[12]
  2. If someone asks about a negative trait in a shidduch one may not lie.[13]
  3. One doesn't have to reveal negative information before going out. One should do so when the two think that they are seriously considering getting married.[14]

Following Women in the Street

See the Inappropriate Staring at the Opposite Gender page.

  1. Even though today it isn't possible for a man not to walk behind a woman at all when walking in the street, still a person should be careful what he looks at when walking.[15]

Giving Gifts

  1. A man shouldn’t give mishloach manot to a woman or vice versa. Some explain that it isn’t an appropriate interaction, while others explain that there is a concern that people will think that they are married even though they aren’t. Some permit a man giving mishloach to a woman if his intentions are actually completely pure.[16]

Date Specific Shaylot

Paint Night, Wax sculptures

  1. See Drawing a Pasuk Respecting_Holy_Books#Writing_Pesukim
  2. See Drawing a Sun, Moon or Stars Drawing_or_Sculpting_Forbidden_Images#Sun.2C_Moon.2C_and_Stars
  3. Making a human sculptures Drawing_or_Sculpting_Forbidden_Images#Human_Images

Art Museums

  1. See Kippah#Wearing_a_Kippah_in_a_Place_not_Suitable_for_a_Religious_Jew

Movie

  1. See Internet,_TV,_Social_Media

Sports Games

  1. See Inappropriate Staring at the Opposite Gender

Ice Skating, Archery

  1. See Modesty
  2. See Inappropriate Staring at the Opposite Gender
  3. Catching her if she falls see Negiah

Arcade, Casino, Bingo

  1. Regarding gambling see Minhagim_of_Chanukah#Dreidel

Going to the Zoo

  1. Regarding Brachos when seeing certain animals see Bracha for an Unusual Creature.
  2. (Does seeing non-kosher animals cause spiritual damage?)

Scavenger Hunt in Barnes&Nobles

  1. See Deceitful Practices#Window Shopping

Hotel Lobby

  1. See Marit Ayin

Pouching a Shidduch

  1. If a couple got engaged (and they wrote up tenayim or shidduchim or didn't write anything, but made a decision to get engaged in a place where they don't write tenayim or shidduchim) it is forbidden for a man to try to date and marry that woman. Stealing a shidduch is a violation of the cherem of breaking an engagement as well as a violation of stealing something that someone else was trying to get (ani ha'mehapech b'charara).[17]
  2. If a couple got engaged and in their place they usually write up tenayim or shidduchim and they didn't yet get to do that, according to Ashkenazim it is technically permitted for a man to try to date marry that woman but a yireh shamayim would not do such a thing.[18]
  3. If a man and woman are dating and are not engaged, it is technically permitted for another man to try to date and marry that woman.[19]

Sources

  1. ↑ The Maharik (responsa 164) writes about a case where a young man’s parents don't want their son to marry a certain young woman whom he is interested in marrying. He posits three reasons why the son isn't bound by his parents’ wishes in this case. First, Kibbud Av V’em primarily means servicing a parent, but does not require listening to them in ways that don't directly benefit them. Second, Kibbud Av V’em is a mitzvah which doesn't need to come at one's own expense, and losing a potential spouse is worth more than money. Finally, since getting married is a mitzvah, a parent can't prevent a child from doing a mitzvah. Rama Y.D. 240:25 codifies this Maharik. Gra 240:36 and Chazon Ish YD 149:8 support the Maharik.
  2. ↑ Sefer Chasidim 564 writes that although parents generally cannot object to a child getting married, if the potential shidduch would be spiritually hazardous for their child, the child must listen to their parents. His proof is that Yaakov listened to Yitzchak not to marry any of the women of Kenaan. On this basis, Yalkut Yosef (Kibbud Av V’em p. 438) and Rav Aryeh Leib Shteinman (K'ayal Tarog Shidduchin p. 46) write that if the prospective young woman or man isn’t actually a good fit spiritually, the children certainly must listen to their parents. Yalkut Yosef clarifies that the Maharik (see next footnote) agrees with this. Rav Willig (oral communication) thought that this is a very important consideration when applying the Maharik.
  3. ↑ Meishiv Davar 2:50 says that if the parents are pained by a certain shidduch, the child should listen to them. Rav Aryeh Leib Shteinman (K'ayal Tarog Shidduchin p. 46) agrees.
  4. ↑ Rav Schachter (Mussar Shmooze on Dating min 16). Similarly, Shevet Halevi 4:124, Tzitz Eliezer 13:78, and Yalkut Yosef (Kibbud Av V’em p. 437) all hold that even though one doesn't have to listen to one's parents, he should do everything in his power to get them on his side to agree with the shidduch.
  5. ↑ Rambam Isurei Biyah 21:3, Shulchan Aruch EH 21:3, Nitai Gavriel Shidduchim p. 84
  6. ↑ Shulchan Aruch E.H. 21:3, Shevet Halevi 5:200
  7. ↑ He quoted the Chabiner Rav, Rav Dovid Feinstein, Rav Moshe Heinemann, Rav Shmuel Fuerst, and Rav Chaim Kanievsky as all expressing disapproval of this practice because either it doesn't give the girl a fair chance, pictures can be deceiving, and it isn't tzanua for a girl to be giving out her picture.
  8. ↑ Nitai Gavriel Shidduchim p. 86, Valehu Lo Yibol 2:179 quoted Rav Shlomo Zalman as saying that it is sufficient to have 3 or 4 dates.
  9. ↑ Beer Yisrael p. 51
  10. ↑ Beer Yisrael p. 50
  11. ↑ Rama EH 55:1
  12. ↑ Beer Yisrael p. 42 citing Igrot Moshe OC 4:118, Chafetz Chaim klal 9
  13. ↑ Beer Yisrael p. 42
  14. ↑ Beer Yisrael p. 43 quoting the Steipler and other gedolim, Igrot Moshe 4:118
  15. ↑ The Gemara Brachot 61a states that it is better to walk behind a lion than a women in the marketplace. Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach in Minchat Shlomo 1:91 writes that today since there are as many women as there are men on the street unlike in the days of chazal it is impossible not to follow a woman in the street. He concludes that for a mitzvah or for etiquette one can be lenient to follow a woman in the street. Rabbi Willig (approx min 30) added that even though it is impossible not to walk behind women but still you need to be careful of what you see. Rav Nissim Karelitz in Chut Shani (Shabbat v. 3 p. 268) writes that nowadays when it is impossible not to walk behind a woman in the streets one should walk quickly so as not to follow a particular woman. The Leket Yosher YD p. 37 writes that it is permitted to follow a religious woman nowadays. Tzitz Eliezer 9:50 explained that today it is permitted to follow a woman in the street since it is so common it doesn't arouse inappropriate thoughts. He quotes Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach as agreeing with him. Yabia Omer OC 6:13:5 seems to agree.
    • However, Gan Naul (Tzeniyut v. 1 3:4) holds that the prohibition still applies today. He quotes Doleh Umashkeh p. 290 who records that Rav Chaim Kanievsky said that it is proper to avoid walking behind a woman today if it is possible. He also cites the Bnei Yakov siman
    21 who quotes Rav Ovadia Yosef as holding that one can be lenient since woman commonly walk the streets.
  16. ↑
    • The Mahari Barin (cited by Darkei Moshe 695:7) writes that a man shouldn’t give mishloach manot to a woman or the opposite. The Rama OC 695:4 codifies this. The Machasit Hashekel 695:15 explains that the concern that through these gifts the man will affect a questionable kiddushin with the woman isn’t an issue because there would need to be witnesses for it to be a valid kiddushin. Rather the concern is that perhaps someone seeing this interaction will think that they are married and this is a gift between them. Magen Avraham 695:15 and Mishna Brurah 695:26 concur.
    • Aruch Hashulchan 695:18 adds that the real issue is that when a man gives a woman a gift it leads to a closeness which is inappropriate. Tzemech Yehuda 3:235:4 agrees. Chashukei Chemed Megillah 4a quotes Rav Elyashiv as holding that if there’s no other choice a man could give mishloach manot to a woman if given in a manner that wouldn’t cause to closeness.
    Betzel Chochma 5:51 writes that the Rama was only concerned about kiddushin. He adds that one doesn’t have to be concerned about inappropriate interactions since one is doing a mitzvah of mishloach manot. Additionally, nowadays we are lenient to greet a woman (Rama EH 21:4) and as such we can be lenient in this regard as well. However, he advises not relying on that unless one’s intent is completely pure.
  17. ↑ Igrot Moshe EH 1:91. Rav Moshe explains that there's a cherem to break an engaged once they if they wrote up tenayim or shidduchim or if they decided to get engaged in a place where they do not write tenayim or shidduchim. In terms of ani hamehapech b'charara seemingly it should be permitted for two reasons: 1) According to Rabbenu Tam, there's no issue of ani hamehapech b'charara when dealing with something that is free. Since marrying a woman is like getting something from hefker (ownerless), stealing a fiancé is permitted. 2) According to Maharam, there's no issue of ani hamehapech b'charara before the buyer and seller decided on a price. So too, with an engagement there's no prohibition before they write the tenayim. However, Rav Moshe writes that since there's a cherem to break the engagement there's also a prohibition of ani hamehapech b'charara to steal an engaged woman. He explains that there's two approach to Rabbenu Tam. One is that something that everyone can acquire equally like hefker is not subject to ani hamehapech b'charara (Rama citing Radach). But the engaged woman is not equally available to anyone. Another reason for Rabbenu Tam, is that hefker doesn't belong to anyone so it is fine to take it (Shach citing Ramban). But with engagement since both the man and woman want to marry it is like they're married in the sense that it would be forbidden for anyone else to marry her.
  18. ↑ Igrot Moshe EH 1:91 s.v. yatza
  19. ↑ Igrot Moshe EH 1:91
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