Counting Jewish People: Difference between revisions

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However, the Mishna Yoma 22b writes that when the officer in charge of appointing specific Cohanim to the jobs in that day’s service in the Bet HaMidash, the officer would pick a high number, each cohen would put out one or two fingers and then the officer would count the fingers until he reached the number he picked. The Gemara explains that they didn’t count the heads of the Cohanim because it’s prohibited to count Jews even for the purpose of a mitzvah and proves it from a פסוק by Shaul HaMelech who counted the people for the army through sheep (he gave each person a sheep and then collected the sheep and counted them). Then the Gemara goes on to quote two other pesukim in Nach to prove the prohibition to count Jews.  
However, the Mishna Yoma 22b writes that when the officer in charge of appointing specific Cohanim to the jobs in that day’s service in the Bet HaMikdash, the officer would pick a high number, each cohen would put out one or two fingers and then the officer would count the fingers until he reached the number he picked. The Gemara explains that they didn’t count the heads of the Cohanim because it’s prohibited to count Jews even for the purpose of a mitzvah and proves it from a פסוק by Shaul HaMelech who counted the people for the army through sheep (he gave each person a sheep and then collected the sheep and counted them). Then the Gemara goes on to quote two other pesukim in Nach to prove the prohibition to count Jews.  




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The question asked is that why didn’t the Gemara quote the פסוק in Ki Tisa which would be a biblical source instead of quoting from Neviyim. Some answer that it was possible to think that the reason the half shekelim were collected was in collect to atone for the Chet HaEgel really counting directly was permitted, therefore the Gemara brings a source in Nach to prove the prohibition (Maharsha Yoma). Alternatively some answer that perhaps Moshe counted them directly and the coins were given to remove the Ayin Harah but there’s no proof to the actual prohibition and so the Gemara quoted the pesukim by shaul (Makom Shmuel). However, some answered that really there is a prohibition from the פסוק in Ki Tisa but the Gemara wanted to prove that it was prohibited even for mitzvah purposes and the count in Ki Tisa wasn’t for mitzvah purposes. The implication of this is that the count done by Moshe wasn’t for a mitzvah but nonetheless was permitted by means of counting something besides the actual people (Tzitz Eliezer 7:3:1, Divrei Emet). Yet, this last point is disputed and some rejected this leniency saying that if this were true then why didn’t Yoav (David’s general who carried out the count) collect something from each Jews and then count that, rather it must be that there’s no leniency to count by means of something else except for the purposes of a mitzvah (Bear Sheva).  
The question asked is that why didn’t the Gemara quote the פסוק in Ki Tisa which would be a biblical source instead of quoting from Neviyim. Some answer that it was possible to think that the reason the half shekelim were collected was in collect to atone for the Chet HaEgel really counting directly was permitted, therefore the Gemara brings a source in Nach to prove the prohibition (Maharsha Yoma). Alternatively some answer that perhaps Moshe counted them directly and the coins were given to remove the Ayin Harah but there’s no proof to the actual prohibition and so the Gemara quoted the pesukim by shaul (Makom Shmuel). However, some answered that really there is a prohibition from the פסוק in Ki Tisa but the Gemara wanted to prove that it was prohibited even for mitzvah purposes and the count in Ki Tisa wasn’t for mitzvah purposes. The implication of this is that the count done by Moshe wasn’t for a mitzvah but nonetheless was permitted by means of counting something besides the actual people (Tzitz Eliezer 7:3:1, Divrei Emet). Yet, this last point is disputed and some rejected this leniency saying that if this were true then why didn’t Yoav (David’s general who carried out the count) collect something from each Jew and then count that, rather it must be that there’s no leniency to count by means of something else except for the purposes of a mitzvah (Bear Sheva).  




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There’s numerous discussions on this halachic topic drawing on all different types of sources and logic. Two more points is that this discussion reemerged when European countries began to take public censuses. It was discussed at length at the time with the חתם סופר coming out strict that one shouldn’t participate while the Peot HaShulchan concluding leniently. Since then there has been a tremendous discussion every time the Israeli census takes place, some of the Gedolim permitting while others advising people from refraining.  
There are numerous discussions on this halachic topic drawing on all different types of sources and logic. This discussion has reemerged at two other points in history. When European countries began to take public censuses, it was discussed at length with the חתם סופר ruling strictly that one shouldn’t participate while the Peot HaShulchan concluding leniently. And more recently, there has been a tremendous discussion every time the Israeli census takes place, some of the Gedolim permitting while others advising people from refraining.  


==General==
==General==
# There’s a prohibition to count Jewish people. <Ref>The source in Torah for the prohibition is found in Shemot 30:12 which says that each person counted must give an atonement in order to prevent a plague. Gemara Brachot 62b relates that when David HaMelech made a mistake to count the Jews a plague actually did come onto the people. Gemara Yoma 22b rules that it's forbidden to count Jews even for a mitzvah purpose based on Shmuel 1, 15:4 which says that Shaul counted the people by means of lambs, giving one to each person and then collecting them again. Most achronim (Magan Avraham 156:2, Pri Chadash 55:1, Kaf HaChaim 13:10) hold that the prohibition still applies nowadays and are supported by the Rambam Temidin UMussafin 4:4. The Aynayim LeMishpat (Brachot 62b) who says that there’s no prohibition nowadays based on Rabbenu Chananel in Brachot, however, the Sh”t Tzitz Eliezer 7:3 (Chapter 1 section 2) strongly disagrees in explanation of the Gemara. All achronim agree that there’s still a prohibition in effect nowadays including the Magan Avraham 156:2, Gra (Aderet Eliyahu Parshat Ki Tisa). </ref> According to most authorities this prohibition is a biblical command. <Ref>Sh”t Tzitz Eliezer 7:3 (Chapter 1 section 1) </ref>
# There’s a prohibition to count Jewish people. <Ref>The source in Torah for the prohibition is found in Shemot 30:12 which says that each person counted must give an atonement in order to prevent a plague. Gemara Brachot 62b relates that when David HaMelech made a mistake to count the Jews a plague actually did affect the people. Gemara Yoma 22b rules that it's forbidden to count Jews even for a mitzvah purpose based on Shmuel 1, 15:4 which says that Shaul counted the people by means of lambs, giving one to each person and then collecting them again. Most achronim (Magan Avraham 156:2, Pri Chadash 55:1, Kaf HaChaim 13:10) hold that the prohibition still applies nowadays and are supported by the Rambam Temidin UMussafin 4:4. The Aynayim LeMishpat (Brachot 62b) says that there’s no prohibition nowadays based on Rabbenu Chananel in Brachot; however, the Sh”t Tzitz Eliezer 7:3 (Chapter 1 section 2) strongly disagrees with that explanation of the Gemara. All achronim agree that there’s still a prohibition in effect nowadays including the Magan Avraham 156:2, Gra (Aderet Eliyahu Parshat Ki Tisa). </ref> According to most authorities this prohibition is a biblical command. <Ref>Sh”t Tzitz Eliezer 7:3 (Chapter 1 section 1) </ref>
==Permissible ways==
==Permissible ways==
===By means of something else===
===By means of something else===
# Counting through something else like counting the fingers of people is only permitted for a serious need or need of a mitzvah. <ref>S”t Tzitz Eliezer 7:3:8, Seridei Esh 1:140, Sh”t Shevet HaLevi 1:34 </ref>
# Counting through something else like counting the fingers of people is only permitted for a serious need or need of a mitzvah. <ref>S”t Tzitz Eliezer 7:3:8, Seridei Esh 1:140, Sh”t Shevet HaLevi 1:34 </ref>
===For a mitzvah===
===For a mitzvah===
# The prohibition applies even counting for a mitzvah. <ref>Magan Avraham 156:2 </ref>
# The prohibition applies even when counting for a mitzvah. <ref>Magan Avraham 156:2 </ref>
# The minhag is to allow counting for a mitzvah using the פסוק of Hoshiyah Et Amecha…הושיעה את עמך וברך את נחלתך ורעם ונשאם עד העולם in order to count for a minyan. <Ref>Kitzur S”A 15:3, Piskei Teshuvot 156:24, and Minchat Asher Parshat Bamidbar (Siman 1) </ref>
# The minhag is to allow counting for a mitzvah using the פסוק of Hoshiyah Et Amecha…הושיעה את עמך וברך את נחלתך ורעם ונשאם עד העולם in order to count for a minyan. <Ref>Kitzur S”A 15:3, Piskei Teshuvot 156:24, and Minchat Asher Parshat Bamidbar (Siman 1) </ref>
===In thought===
===In thought===
# Many poskim permit counting in one’s thought (by looking and counting in one’s head without making any motions) for a mitzvah or any need. <Ref>Yalkut Yosef (Piskei DeZimrah 55 note 2, Sherit Yosef vol 2 pg 93) permits counting for a minyan in one’s mind. Sh"t Tzitz Eliezer 7:3:8, Minchat Asher (Bamidbar 1) in name of the Kaf HaChaim Sofer and Kaf HaChaim Palagi permit. However, Etz Yosef (Yoma 22b; quoted by Piskei Teshuvot 156:24) is strict. </ref>
# Many poskim permit counting in one’s thought (by looking and counting in one’s head without making any motions) for a mitzvah or any need. <Ref>Yalkut Yosef (Piskei DeZimrah 55 note 2, Sherit Yosef vol 2 pg 93) permits counting for a minyan in one’s mind. Sh"t Tzitz Eliezer 7:3:8, Minchat Asher (Bamidbar 1) in name of the Kaf HaChaim Sofer and Kaf HaChaim Palagi permit. However, Etz Yosef (Yoma 22b; quoted by Piskei Teshuvot 156:24) is strict. </ref>
==Other examples==
==Other examples==
# Numbering Jewish graves is prohibited, however it’s permissible to number each section assuming that there’s different number of graves in each section. <Ref>Sh”t Igrot Moshe Y”D 2:117(2) </ref>
# Numbering Jewish graves is prohibited, however it’s permissible to number each section assuming that there are a different number of graves in each section. <Ref>Sh”t Igrot Moshe Y”D 2:117(2) </ref>
# It’s a problem of counting Jewish people for people or children standing in a line for each one to say his number. <Ref> Shevet HaLevi 1:34 </ref>
# It’s a problem of counting Jewish people when people or children standing in a line each recite their number. <Ref> Shevet HaLevi 1:34 </ref>
# Counting Jewish names on a list is a dispute. <Ref>Chatan Sofer (Y”D 106) in name of his father the חתם סופר who says that it’s forbidden Deoritta. </ref>
# Counting Jewish names on a list is a dispute. <Ref>Chatan Sofer (Y”D 106) in name of his father the חתם סופר who says that it’s forbidden Deoritta. </ref>
==The census==
==The census==
# Some hold participating in the Israeli consenus is permissible. <Ref>Sh”t Shevet HaLevi O”C 9:35, Sh”t Mishpatei Uziel 4:2, Sh"t Seridei Esh 2:48, Menachem Kasher (Sh"t Divrei Menachem 1:36), Rabbi Unterman quoted in Techumin (vol 4 pg 335) </ref> while others forbid. <Ref> Rabbi Goren (HaTzofeh Sivan 5743), Rav Chaim Kanievsky (HaTzofeh vol 15 pg 8 col 1; Nachal Eitan 6:10(7)), Sh"t Tzitz Eliezer 7:3, and the Edah Charedit (HaEdah Behalotcha 5733) </ref>
# Some hold that participating in the Israeli consenus is permissible. <Ref>Sh”t Shevet HaLevi O”C 9:35, Sh”t Mishpatei Uziel 4:2, Sh"t Seridei Esh 2:48, Menachem Kasher (Sh"t Divrei Menachem 1:36), Rabbi Unterman quoted in Techumin (vol 4 pg 335) </ref> while others forbid. <Ref> Rabbi Goren (HaTzofeh Sivan 5743), Rav Chaim Kanievsky (HaTzofeh vol 15 pg 8 col 1; Nachal Eitan 6:10(7)), Sh"t Tzitz Eliezer 7:3, and the Edah Charedit (HaEdah Behalotcha 5733) </ref>


==Links==
==Links==

Revision as of 23:41, 29 May 2011

Background of the issue

The first source which introduces the prohibition of counting Jewish people is from the פסוק in Ki Tisa כי תשא את ראש בני ישראל לפקדיהם ונתנו איש כפר נפשו ליהוה בפקד אתם ולא יהיה בהם נגף בפקד אתם: Rashi writes that the פסוק implies that the count incurs the Ayin Hara rather they should give half shekels in order to be counted and in this way they’ll be spared from a plague. According to this understanding of the פסוק there’s a general prohibition to count Jews directly and there’s also a danger of incurring a plague.


However, the Mishna Yoma 22b writes that when the officer in charge of appointing specific Cohanim to the jobs in that day’s service in the Bet HaMikdash, the officer would pick a high number, each cohen would put out one or two fingers and then the officer would count the fingers until he reached the number he picked. The Gemara explains that they didn’t count the heads of the Cohanim because it’s prohibited to count Jews even for the purpose of a mitzvah and proves it from a פסוק by Shaul HaMelech who counted the people for the army through sheep (he gave each person a sheep and then collected the sheep and counted them). Then the Gemara goes on to quote two other pesukim in Nach to prove the prohibition to count Jews.


[Some explain that the reason it was permitted to count fingers and not heads is because when counting heads one is certain to come to a precise total while when counting fingers one is uncertain whether one will actually know the number of Jews considering that some put out two fingers and some only one. On the other hand some said that counting any part of a person that’s not totally an essential part of the body (finger) is like not counting a Jew directly. (Sh”t Igrot Moshe Y”D 2:117(2).)]


The question asked is that why didn’t the Gemara quote the פסוק in Ki Tisa which would be a biblical source instead of quoting from Neviyim. Some answer that it was possible to think that the reason the half shekelim were collected was in collect to atone for the Chet HaEgel really counting directly was permitted, therefore the Gemara brings a source in Nach to prove the prohibition (Maharsha Yoma). Alternatively some answer that perhaps Moshe counted them directly and the coins were given to remove the Ayin Harah but there’s no proof to the actual prohibition and so the Gemara quoted the pesukim by shaul (Makom Shmuel). However, some answered that really there is a prohibition from the פסוק in Ki Tisa but the Gemara wanted to prove that it was prohibited even for mitzvah purposes and the count in Ki Tisa wasn’t for mitzvah purposes. The implication of this is that the count done by Moshe wasn’t for a mitzvah but nonetheless was permitted by means of counting something besides the actual people (Tzitz Eliezer 7:3:1, Divrei Emet). Yet, this last point is disputed and some rejected this leniency saying that if this were true then why didn’t Yoav (David’s general who carried out the count) collect something from each Jew and then count that, rather it must be that there’s no leniency to count by means of something else except for the purposes of a mitzvah (Bear Sheva).


Nonetheless, there is an explicit Gemara Brachot 62 which says that after David sinned, Hashem said that he would make David falter even on something so simple every schoolchild would know and so it happened that David counted the Jews and there was a plague. Interestingly that Gemara quotes the פסוק in Ki Tisa and comments that it was something that everyone knew, seemingly implying that it’s a bona fide prohibition. Based on this understanding of the פסוק in Ki Tisa there’s a question as to why the Rishonim who listed all 613 מצות didn’t count this one. Some drew from this that actually the entire prohibition was Derabbanan (Rashbetz) while others answered that it wasn’t counted because it wasn’t explicit in the Torah and it’s only a negative command implied from a positive one which isn’t usually counted amongst the 613 (Divrei Emet).


There are numerous discussions on this halachic topic drawing on all different types of sources and logic. This discussion has reemerged at two other points in history. When European countries began to take public censuses, it was discussed at length with the חתם סופר ruling strictly that one shouldn’t participate while the Peot HaShulchan concluding leniently. And more recently, there has been a tremendous discussion every time the Israeli census takes place, some of the Gedolim permitting while others advising people from refraining.

General

  1. There’s a prohibition to count Jewish people. [1] According to most authorities this prohibition is a biblical command. [2]

Permissible ways

By means of something else

  1. Counting through something else like counting the fingers of people is only permitted for a serious need or need of a mitzvah. [3]

For a mitzvah

  1. The prohibition applies even when counting for a mitzvah. [4]
  2. The minhag is to allow counting for a mitzvah using the פסוק of Hoshiyah Et Amecha…הושיעה את עמך וברך את נחלתך ורעם ונשאם עד העולם in order to count for a minyan. [5]

In thought

  1. Many poskim permit counting in one’s thought (by looking and counting in one’s head without making any motions) for a mitzvah or any need. [6]

Other examples

  1. Numbering Jewish graves is prohibited, however it’s permissible to number each section assuming that there are a different number of graves in each section. [7]
  2. It’s a problem of counting Jewish people when people or children standing in a line each recite their number. [8]
  3. Counting Jewish names on a list is a dispute. [9]

The census

  1. Some hold that participating in the Israeli consenus is permissible. [10] while others forbid. [11]

Links

  1. http://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/756058/Rabbi_Aryeh_Lebowitz/Ten_Minute_Halacha_-_Counting_Jews
  2. http://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/735675/Rabbi_Dr._J._David_Bleich/The_Halachic_Controversy_Concerning_the_Israeli_Census

References

  1. ↑ The source in Torah for the prohibition is found in Shemot 30:12 which says that each person counted must give an atonement in order to prevent a plague. Gemara Brachot 62b relates that when David HaMelech made a mistake to count the Jews a plague actually did affect the people. Gemara Yoma 22b rules that it's forbidden to count Jews even for a mitzvah purpose based on Shmuel 1, 15:4 which says that Shaul counted the people by means of lambs, giving one to each person and then collecting them again. Most achronim (Magan Avraham 156:2, Pri Chadash 55:1, Kaf HaChaim 13:10) hold that the prohibition still applies nowadays and are supported by the Rambam Temidin UMussafin 4:4. The Aynayim LeMishpat (Brachot 62b) says that there’s no prohibition nowadays based on Rabbenu Chananel in Brachot; however, the Sh”t Tzitz Eliezer 7:3 (Chapter 1 section 2) strongly disagrees with that explanation of the Gemara. All achronim agree that there’s still a prohibition in effect nowadays including the Magan Avraham 156:2, Gra (Aderet Eliyahu Parshat Ki Tisa).
  2. ↑ Sh”t Tzitz Eliezer 7:3 (Chapter 1 section 1)
  3. ↑ S”t Tzitz Eliezer 7:3:8, Seridei Esh 1:140, Sh”t Shevet HaLevi 1:34
  4. ↑ Magan Avraham 156:2
  5. ↑ Kitzur S”A 15:3, Piskei Teshuvot 156:24, and Minchat Asher Parshat Bamidbar (Siman 1)
  6. ↑ Yalkut Yosef (Piskei DeZimrah 55 note 2, Sherit Yosef vol 2 pg 93) permits counting for a minyan in one’s mind. Sh"t Tzitz Eliezer 7:3:8, Minchat Asher (Bamidbar 1) in name of the Kaf HaChaim Sofer and Kaf HaChaim Palagi permit. However, Etz Yosef (Yoma 22b; quoted by Piskei Teshuvot 156:24) is strict.
  7. ↑ Sh”t Igrot Moshe Y”D 2:117(2)
  8. ↑ Shevet HaLevi 1:34
  9. ↑ Chatan Sofer (Y”D 106) in name of his father the חתם סופר who says that it’s forbidden Deoritta.
  10. ↑ Sh”t Shevet HaLevi O”C 9:35, Sh”t Mishpatei Uziel 4:2, Sh"t Seridei Esh 2:48, Menachem Kasher (Sh"t Divrei Menachem 1:36), Rabbi Unterman quoted in Techumin (vol 4 pg 335)
  11. ↑ Rabbi Goren (HaTzofeh Sivan 5743), Rav Chaim Kanievsky (HaTzofeh vol 15 pg 8 col 1; Nachal Eitan 6:10(7)), Sh"t Tzitz Eliezer 7:3, and the Edah Charedit (HaEdah Behalotcha 5733)
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